OldTools Archive
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277059 | James DuPrie <jbn.duprie@g...> | 2023‑03‑02 | making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
I've been playing with making scrollwork - cutting patterns out with a coping saw. Like the cast iron 'scrollwork' found on victorian stuff - fines, flowing curves, etc. I've figured out things like dealing with weak cross grain (design around it or build panes so there ISN'T cross grain) and such, but I haven't figured out how to smooth the cuts. filing and sanding work for areas where there is a lot of room, but in areas where there are acute angles coming together, there simply isn;t room to get in and sand. Add int he complication that the surfaces are all curves (so you an't use a nail file), and I'm stuck. Maybe its my coping saw techique, but the surfaces simply aren't good - rough, ridges, bumps, etc.... any ideas? I'll post some pics on facebook.... thanks -James |
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277060 | Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> | 2023‑03‑02 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
James, I had some similar issues when doing the scrollwork for a Chippendale looking glass. Thoughts from memory... 1. Use as fine tooth a blade as possible (see below). 2. Use a bird's mouth platform to minimize chipping. 3. Sandpaper wrapped around a popsicle stick helps in tight areas. For really tight spots try folding the sandpaper over on itself and hold both ends of the sandpaper strip (above/below), pull tight, and gently work your way in. I don't recall what tooth I used (probably 20-24) in my coping saw. If I was doing it again, I'd use a fretsaw and 2/0 blade to minimize the need for sanding in the first place. That's assuming you are working with fairly thin material (1/4" or less). Dennis Heyza New Baltimore, Michigan -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... |
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277062 | gary allan may | 2023‑03‑02 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
Hi James--- One thing I'd add to Mr. Heyza's pretty-much-perfect summary: use coarse garnet paper for sandpaper, even as gravelly as 60-80 grit. Garnet 'softens' quickly in use and removes its own tracks almost magically. If you have a long way to go with your shaping or toothmark removal, 60-grit will start acting like 120-grit by time you get close. And then 120 magically becomes 220, just as fast. Hey, got designs to show??? EMWTK.... all the best to all galoots, everywhere; gam in OlyWA On Thursday, March 2, 2023 at 06:21:56 AM PST, Dennis Heyza |
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277063 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2023‑03‑02 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
If memory serves, I've seen somewhere for sale narrow strips of abrasive papers with fixings to use them in coping or fretsaws. You may be able to fashion something like that using bits of tape to attach the abrasives to the saw. FWIW Don On 2023-03-02 6:03 a.m., James DuPrie wrote: > I've been playing with making scrollwork - cutting patterns out with a > coping saw. Like the cast iron 'scrollwork' found on victorian stuff - > fines, flowing curves, etc. > > I've figured out things like dealing with weak cross grain (design around > it or build panes so there ISN'T cross grain) and such, but I haven't > figured out how to smooth the cuts. filing and sanding work for areas where > there is a lot of room, but in areas where there are acute angles coming > together, there simply isn;t room to get in and sand. Add int he > complication that the surfaces are all curves (so you an't use a nail > file), and I'm stuck. > > Maybe its my coping saw techique, but the surfaces simply aren't good - > rough, ridges, bumps, etc.... > > any ideas? > > I'll post some pics on facebook.... > > thanks > -James > > > > > -- Chuck the king - DS It's a Humpty Dumpty world - Ry Cooder |
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277064 | gtgrouch@r... | 2023‑03‑02 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
In the past, I've wrapped abrasive paper around the blade of an electric scroll saw. It's fast. Sometimes too fast, since it can cut thin material quickly. *goes to clean the spittoon for mentioning electrical aids* Gary Katsanis Albion New York, USA where a foot of snow is forecast for the weekend -----------------------------------------From: "Don Schwartz" To: "James DuPrie", "Tools Old" Cc: Sent: Thursday March 2 2023 2:03:56PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] making scrollwork... how to smooth? If memory serves, I've seen somewhere for sale narrow strips of abrasive papers with fixings to use them in coping or fretsaws. You may be able to fashion something like that using bits of tape to attach the abrasives to the saw. FWIW Don On 2023-03-02 6:03 a.m., James DuPrie wrote: > I've been playing with making scrollwork - cutting patterns out with a > coping saw. Like the cast iron 'scrollwork' found on victorian stuff - > fines, flowing curves, etc. > > I've figured out things like dealing with weak cross grain (design around > it or build panes so there ISN'T cross grain) and such, but I haven't > figured out how to smooth the cuts. filing and sanding work for areas where > there is a lot of room, but in areas where there are acute angles coming > together, there simply isn;t room to get in and sand. Add int he > complication that the surfaces are all curves (so you an't use a nail > file), and I'm stuck. > > Maybe its my coping saw techique, but the surfaces simply aren't good - > rough, ridges, bumps, etc.... > > any ideas? > > I'll post some pics on facebook.... > > thanks > -James > > > > > -- Chuck the king - DS It's a Humpty Dumpty world - Ry Cooder Links: ------ [1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub |
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277065 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2023‑03‑02 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
Needle files were made for this. But they won't go in everywhere. Gluing sandpaper down to sticks of various sizes will fit even more places. The tiniest slits usually just have to stay. Just sand the outsides for any chipouts. Nobody can see inside anyway. yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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277066 | James DuPrie <jbn.duprie@g...> | 2023‑03‑03 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
Thanks everyone.... I switched from a coping saw to a jewelers saw - much finer blade/teeth, and that helped a lot. Still working on getting the tight areas clean, and long smooth curves regular. things I've figured out: - 3/8" is too thick. dropping to 1/4 made a HUGE difference. - rolled up sandpaper, Popsicle sticks, nail files, etc all work, but there are places they just can;t reach... - Same goes for needle files and rifflers.... - go slow. painfully slow. cutting fast is satisfying, but gives poor results (practice probably allows for more speed) - PRACTICE. probably the biggest one. The improvements I've seen in just a few days are significant. Of course, being a perfectionist, I'll probably never truly get to the "this is good" phase... - it might be time to think about a treadle powered scroll saw.... -james |
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277067 | Erik Levin | 2023‑03‑03 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
James followed up with: >Thanks everyone.... >I switched from a coping saw to a jewelers saw - much finer blade/teeth, >and that helped a lot. >Still working on getting the tight areas clean, and long smooth curves >regular. A couple of things to consider: Knife and barrette profile files have a narrow angle and come to a sharp edge and are good for where you are coming to a point without much curve. Rifflers come in profiles that will do the same when the approach is a curve. At narrow areas, don't cut to the point with the saw. Stop short, and file to the point. Tilt the file from perpendicular to the surface to stretch to a sharp point of narrower angle than the file angle. No, you won't clear all of the material out to the point, but it will look perfect at the surface. Where the material isn't removed all of the way through, the surface cut is so narrow it won't be seen. *** This message was sent from a convenience email service, and the reply address(es) may not match the originating address |
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277068 | Tony Seo | 2023‑03‑03 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
On 3/3/2023 7:55 AM, James DuPrie wrote: > Thanks everyone.... At one point I had a box of garnet paper strips, they were about 3" long and 1/8" wide. I believe that they were used for either jewelry work or dental (denture) making. But they have disappeared here so.... If you could find something like that, I'm sure they could solve a lot of problems. Tony (no video this week and watching the weather for PATINA not getting very pretty looking at this point) -- Facebook https://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic Old River Hard Goods http://oldetoolshop.com/ |
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277069 | Bridger Berdel <bridgerberdel@g...> | 2023‑03‑04 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
Narrow strips of abrasives sounds like something that could be mounted into a fret saw.... On Fri, Mar 3, 2023, 4:44 PM Tony Seo via groups.io |
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277070 | Dennis Heyza <michigaloot@c...> | 2023‑03‑04 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
Narrow strips was what I alluded to in my reply. Just cut a strip (found it helps if you cut 1" and fold it over to 1/2"). If you cut it long enough (say 5-6") you can easily pull it taught above/below the scrollwork and sand - sometimes up/down, sometimes side to side. You can easily get this is pretty tight spots. Dennis -----Original Message----- From: oldtools@g... |
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277071 | James DuPrie <jbn.duprie@g...> | 2023‑03‑04 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
I actually discovered the point trick yesterday. By accident. I was trying to clean up a point at the end of a long narrow curve, and started the file at an angle to establish the 'target' line. then the phone rang. while I was dealing with the call, I noticed that the corner looked...perfect... Once I was off the phone, I looked a bit closer, and (you;re right) even though the actual cut only went a little bit into the surface, it LOOKED like it was all the way through. A bit more playing, and (depending on grain direction) I can get the same effect with an X-acto knife or sharp chisel.... thanks! -James |
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277072 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2023‑03‑04 | Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
That's what i suggested� - strips taped to fret saw or coping saw. Don On 2023-03-04 5:17 a.m., Dennis Heyza wrote: > Narrow strips was what I alluded to in my reply. Just cut a strip (found it helps if you cut 1" and fold it over to 1/2"). If you cut it long enough (say 5-6") you can easily pull it taught above/below the scrollwork and sand - sometimes up/down, sometimes side to side. You can easily get this is pretty tight spots. > > Dennis > > -----Original Message----- > From: oldtools@g... |
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277074 | Kirk Eppler | 2023‑03‑06 | Re: [Sender Verification Fail] Re: making scrollwork... how to smooth? |
I posted this on the FB thread, but I once saw a suggestion to use Mylar backed sandpaper for thin gaps, less thick than paper or cloth backed, and still very flexible. https://www.amazon.com/1X30-2000-Grit-Polishing-Cushioned/dp/B08CY6MM6X Something like this, can be cut to narrower or shorter once you get going. I used to have cord abrasives for stripping paint off a turned table leg, and this is finer still. Kirk in Half Moon Bay, still fishing through the haul of tools from my buddy's garage. On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 11:13 AM Dennis Heyza |
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277092 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2023‑03‑10 | Re: Quality scrollwork. (was: making scrollwork... how to smooth?) |
A small revelation that says much about design being informed by making > On 10 Mar 2023, at 12:52, James DuPrie |
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277093 | Kevin Foley <kevin.foley.135@g...> | 2023‑03‑10 | Re: Quality scrollwork. (was: making scrollwork... how to smooth?) |
Richard said: " ...result of having the design workable with the tools on hand. - so THAT’s why carvers have so many tools. But only the ones they actually need." Adding only a little to that, in conversation with a conservator of antique furniture I was told that when the execution of carving on a piece is examined sometimes elements show evidence of being carved with a less-than-optimal tool belying a gap in the carver's kit. A gap in the carver's kit such as making up for missing a gouge of a particular sweep can be observed from piece to piece giving evidence of association. Though identifying a carver doesn't alway identify a joiner - carving would often be subbed out. Kevin in cloudy, drizzly Chantilly, trying to rationalize the trip to Damascus tomorrow by devaluing the things I should be doing instead, and convincing myself I'm only going to have a doughnut and look. On Fri, Mar 10, 2023 at 11:58 AM Richard Wilson < yorkshireman@y...> wrote: |
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277112 | Thomas Conroy | 2023‑03‑18 | Re: Quality scrollwork. (was: making scrollwork... how to smooth?) |
The Yorkshireman Galoot (in a sunny Northumbria, where snow is hiding away in shady places) wrote: "Isn’t that true for so many of us? After some sweaty hours attempting to make or repair summit (some thing, Paddy) when you next encounter that same detail, you make it in such a way that it fits your tools. "My own conversion was when I discovered that architectural carvings are fitted to the sweep of the gouges you have on hand, and the crisp results are not the product of years of apprenticing to handle a gouge and sweep a clean, cut curve with one blow, but the result of having the design workable with the tools on hand. - so THAT’s why carvers have so many tools. But only the ones they actually need." This is how I was taught to approach designing for gold-tooled bookbindings. Of course you will someday have the full set of four or five dozen French gouges (pronounced goodges, not gowdges: brass tools in wooden handles, to make specific curved gold lines). To go with the different set of dozens more English gouges, which are different. Plus the extra-thin and extra-thick and random and irregular curves. Of course you will. In the meantime you use the three curves, the dot, and the single leaf you have, eked out by a circle that is actually the "O" from a set of letters. That's your palette. Katharine Adams had less than that: just one dot, which she arranged in lines. Though I should say that I got this attitude from my teacher herself, not from any traditional wisdom. Most bookbinders figure "the more the better." Well, I do too, I suppose. I just, like Quigley, don't feel obliged to use 'em when I don't need to. Tom Conroy Snow? What's that? Its fifteen years since I saw a flake, and that was on a trip to Boston, where they brought out the last snowstorm of the spring to interfere with the workshop I was teaching. Of course, there has been hail on the sidewalks in San Francisco twice in that time, and once on the roof of my house in Berkeley. |
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