OldTools Archive
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273407 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2021‑04‑09 | Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
GG's, I once saw a froe made from a vehicular leaf spring. Based on the width, I'd guess it was a spring from a small truck. The eye was held closed with two hot rivets, though electric welding would have been nice. ( Rivets were on a line perpendicular, rather than parallel to, the handle. ) What's that you say? The steel in vehicle springs won't take and hold a good edge? That's irrelevant in a froe, because froes don't want a razor-sharp edge to begin with! I've got a Snow & Neally froe, purchased brand new at the long-departed Wallace Armer Hardware Store in Schenectady, NY. It has an electric weld holding the eye closed. A quality froe is not necessarily Forge-Welded! A good diameter for a froe's eye would be the diameter of the handle of a long- handle shovel. Shovels with broken handles are commonly found at the curb on "junk day." Just my two cents. John Ruth Keep on snipping; it prevents redundant "hits" when searching the archive. And, storage isn't free and unlimited in the long haul! |
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273420 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2021‑04‑09 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
I once saw a froe made from a vehicular leaf spring. OTS, old truck spring, would make a dandy froe. The bane of knife and other toolmakers, it would do great for a real froe. It would take a heavy truck spring. Ordinary pickup springs are way too thin. But the big ones are 1/2" + thick. The stuff is tenacious and wants to return to its shape on quenching, even after heavy forging. And it would probably take a power hammer to form a proper eye and evenly taper from spine to edge in a true wedge. But forged, hardened and tempered to spring temper it would make a great froe! I haven't seen it done myself. But it could be. I just don't see anyone volunteering for the job hahahah yours scott who has worked OTS a time or two -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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273421 | gary allan may | 2021‑04‑09 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
Scott--- In practical terms, is there a difference between truck spring steel and tool steel? Serious question! I smithed a few chisels out of heavy leaf springs twenty years back---and a dumb adze that I mistakenly ground in-cannel---and all these tools are behaving just as if they were made by T H Witherby himself, over this whole time. Tough edges that stay sharp, nice color deep in the steel...Very satisfying, rolling your own framing chisels, and well worth having a dead arm for a day or two... I never had to make a froe, since the PNW coast is littered with them (well, not *now*, of course, but like Stanley #1s, they really *were* everywhere when nobody wanted them) but as you say, if you want to forge your OWN froe, leaf springs should make a *great* one, if they're thick enough. Most of the hard work's already done, ain't it? I sold a froe or two on the list a good while back, but have not seen ANY going cheap since the turn of the century. But I swear, when I took the smithing class at Pratt, in Seattle, there were several froes in the metal bin, waiting to be made into pot hangers and pukey metal ducks. I will keep an eye out for froes and if lucky, the list will be the first to hear about it. I believe Jack Birky has a froe or two, if he's selling stuff lately. best to all galoots, everywhere, gam in OlyWA/USA How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one cares for none of them! Jane Austen On Friday, April 9, 2021, 09:55:56 AM PDT, scottg |
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273422 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2021‑04‑09 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
From Gary > Scott--- > In practical terms, is there a difference between truck spring steel and tool steel? Serious question! > From Scott > OTS, old truck spring, would make a dandy froe. > But forged, hardened and tempered to spring temper it would make a > great froe! There are a dozen other metallurgists and blacksmiths on the list that could (and I hope do) say it better than I. Here it goes. 1. There’s nothing wrong with making a froe from a truck spring, but it’s more about convenient starting shape than it is about metal. 2. Not to disagree too heavily with Scott, but froes have been made out of soft (ish) steel for quite a while and they work just great. No need for hardening or tempering. No need for edge retention or anything else that would steer a person toward some steel alloy capable of such. Mild steel, the kind that’s plentiful is usually either 1018 or 1020 or A36. The 1018 and 1020 describe a steel that has .18 or .20 percent of carbon in it’s formula. A36 doesn’t describe a steel composition, but instead sets minimum performance standards for that steel. 3. Old truck springs usually get the label of 5160 steel, which again is a composition label that among other things includes .60 percent carbon. It’s often referred to as 60 “points” of carbon. 1018 has .18 percent carbon, so 18 “points”. It is not hardenable, yes even with the galoot superquench. Lots of automotive parts use medium carbon steels. These have enough carbon to be hardenable, but that hardness depends on how much carbon there is. Axles and tie rods are often 4140 steel (40 “points”, you now get it) and can get hard. Spring is often 5160, and it gets harder than 4140 at it’s hardest. “High carbon” steels are up in the 80 and 90 and 100 and 110 “point” range. 4. Here’s two things most non-metallurgists need to know about steel and strength. a) ALL steels have very similar modulus of elasticity, which means that if you apply a force that makes them bend, they all bend about the same amount given the same amount of force. This is called ELASTIC Deformation. We’ve all seen steel get bent by a force, but spring back when that force is removed. And we’ve all seen steel get bent to an extent that when the force is removed, even though it springs back some, there is some permanent bend introduce. This is called PLASTIC Deformation. b) higher strength steels, even though they have the same amount of ELASTIC deformation as low carbon steels, can withstand a LOT more force before they PLASTICALLY deform. This is why spring applications (where you WANT it to return to form) involve alloys of at least a medium carbon steel. 5. The medium and higher carbon steels do not need to be hardened in order to have this higher elastic deformation limit. A froe made from truck spring (5160) will be tougher just because it’s 5160, even when you don’t harden or temper it. It’s automatically a superior froe, and there’s no need to proceed with those steps. 6. A hardened steel is virtually always a more brittle steel. That’s the tradeoff. So chisels aiming for rockwell 62 for that super keen edge are also gonna be brittle. This is a generalization. Fancy alloys are always coming down the pike. A froe needs to be tough way more than it needs to be hard. It’s subject to many forces form the handle and the froe club. Also if it DOES fail, you’d much rather it bend than snap. 7. The upper limit for carbon that contributes to hardenability is in the range of 1.3%. Past that, and the carbon does things that reduce the hardenability. Cast iron has 2 to 4% carbon, for instance. Not hardenable AND brittle! 8. There are tons of alloys out there and each is like a recipe with different methods of achieving it’s max softness and hardness. Sometimes designated by the speed of it’s quench. O1 and O2 are very forgiving alloys that harden fine in Oil, hence the O. W1 and W2 are alloys that need the speed a Water quench provides, hence the W. A1 and A2 are air quenching alloys, as are D2, L2, A33, H13, and S7. Obviously, I’m leaving a lot out, but these are basics. Here’s the short version: You CAN make a froe out of truck spring, but mild steel works fine and hammers much easier. Don’t bother hardening or tempering. A metallurgist in another life, Matthew Groves Springfield, MO |
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273423 | Tim Pendleton <tpendleton@g...> | 2021‑04‑09 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
Matthew, Thank you for that nicely detailed explanation. I've printed it to go in my 'Indispensable Galoot Info File.' Tim Watching seeds germinate is more fun than watching paint dry...but only just. |
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273424 | Michael Suwczinsky <nicknaylo@g...> | 2021‑04‑09 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
Well said Matthew! Even as 'one of the blacksmiths" I learned quite a bit, especially the upper limits of carbon content. Speaking of leaf springs, couple Januarys ago a buddy of mine came up to forge leaf hinges for his Teardrop trailer. Big Round door like a hobbit hole so he was looking for a forged look. Not thinking about it, we used a bunch of leaf spring I had laying around, and maybe leaves out of eight in I started suggested we punch the holes hot, suddenly thinking about the material we were using. 'no, not yet' said Phil, still a little unsure of where on the trailer and door the bolts for the hinges were going to go. https://www.flickr.com/photos/10735775@N.../51105601474/ 'why don't we just punch some of the holes, maybe the ones on the ends of the leaves' thinking this stuff was going to be hard to drill, especially in phil's far more wood oriented shop. No dice, finished all 4 hinges, even had time to play around with some angle iron sculpture. About a month later, I get an email picturing a pile of broken, burned and just rounded off carbide drill bits, along with a smoked cordless drill. the only text 'next time we'll punch the holes' Michael On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 1:15 PM Matthew Groves |
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273441 | james rich <jameslrich3@g...> | 2021‑04‑15 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
So would it be safe to say if I went out to the shed and found a piece of Cold Rolled or Hot Rolled 1/2" x 3 or 4" say 12 to 16" long and welded a 3" long piece of 2' BLACK PIPE on for an Eye , then ground or forged a taper for the edge , I would have a servicable froe ? On Fri, Apr 9, 2021 at 1:15 PM Matthew Groves |
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273442 | Tim Pendleton <tpendleton@g...> | 2021‑04‑15 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
You might consider creating a slight taper on the eye, larger on the bottom. Otherwise you will be knocking the blade off the handle as you pound the froe downward. The handle should also be tapered at the bottom. Tim Waiting for my Mariachi pepper seeds to germinate. |
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273443 | Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> | 2021‑04‑16 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
if one wanted to get really fancy one could take some old wrought iron wagon wheel tire (tyre, jeff), forge an eye on it (easy peasy, wrought loves to stick to itself), and split it to receive an old file. forge weld the file in, taper the wrought blade heavy at the top and fine at the file, soak it in muriatic acid for a few hours, and you've got yourself a pretty pretty little froe. as the learned mr. groves mentions above, you won't even need to harden or temper the file bit, since you don't want it particularly sharp. michael, do you think jim austin would teach a class in this? :) on a not dissimilar note, herr suwczinsky helped me forge some 3' long pintle hinges a number of years back. i didn't have a forge, you see. we whacked barrels on a couple of pieces of 1/4" x 2" mild steel, and didn't seal the barrels (we could have turned them out and forge or otherwise welded them). they're on, holding a heavy gate and not opening from their final cylindrical-ness. the point is one of those wouldn't have been too hard to convert to a froe (cut to length, taper the barrel, taper the blade, cut off an old baseball bat for a handle, and robert's my mother's brother). for as much as anyone among us might use a froe, excepting the outlier or three, i'd bet that'd be enough to split your greenwood for years to come. bill felton, ca |
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273444 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑04‑16 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
I haven’t seen an L-N froe up close, but they use some sort of bolt-on system to keep the handle in place when they have a round socket https://www.lie-nielsen.com/products/lie-nielsen-froes-langsner-froe- Ed Minchn |
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273445 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑04‑16 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
And just as I sent this, I noticed that soemthing had magically appeared in my inbox last night - a how-to video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mdtmbq4cY7A Ed Minch |
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273446 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2021‑04‑16 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
Yes, I’d say it would be very safe to say that. Once more I ask “what level of duty will you call on it for?” May not be pretty (just give it some paint) but froes are workers, not pretty toys. You may choose to spend spend spend hundreds of shingles for a fancy Japanese hand moulded, hardened in dead horses, touched by a living god old bloke with a smithy froe, known as a shibizikudon and decorated with precious metal inlay and a rare gemstone. Or - get thee to the shed and be splitting by lunchtime. Your choice. and may I watch, either way? Richard Wilson where the sun rose onto white over that has now burned away to cloudless sky and a blazing sun > On 15 Apr 2021, at 22:12, james rich |
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273449 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2021‑04‑16 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
With a froe it all depends on what you plan to do with it. Practically anything you cobble together will work for occasional splitting stock for small projects here and there, at your chopping block. But once you commit to busting out a zillion shakes to cover a roof or a shed or something, things start to matter. A fully tapered blade comes into its own then. One thing nobody ever talks about is holding the shake bolt. You can't just chase them around on open ground for long. It'll wear you to a frazzle. (been there) I used a pretty short tree stump, flattened on the face, with a corral made of scrap 2X4's along the ground, to keep the bottom end of the bolt in place and have something to pull back against. You sure need something when you are going to be doing a lot of them. I never saw anyone else's solution. I have seen large homes with steep pitched big roofs covered in hand split shakes. I always wondered how other guys did it. yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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273451 | Kirk Eppler | 2021‑04‑16 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
On Fri, Apr 16, 2021 at 10:46 AM scottg |
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273452 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2021‑04‑16 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
actually see what you built. Oh how I would love nothing more than to post a picture! But it was many years ago. I had built a sizeable new woodshed from poles and a shake roof. But I was in my late 20's and hardly have a picture of anything then! I do seem to remember a re-creation some time only a few decades ago. But I can't find that either. If I could sketch I would draw it out, But sadly, as it is, nobody would be able to tell what I drew For an example Here was my plan for my granddaughters pad http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/babybed15.jpg Here is what she got http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/house/babybed11.jpg yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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273481 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2021‑04‑21 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
Froe-less Galoots: I just stumbled on this while searching for something else: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B089MC9PRC/ref=sspa_mw_detail_6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&pd_ rd_i=B089MC9PRCp13NParams&smid=A3CRDQGDJQTW41 The description looks very promising. John Ruth Driven indoors by a cold weather front with thunderstorms |
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273482 | gtgrouch@r... | 2021‑04‑21 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
I have one that looks somewhat like this. It was ok for the small rushed project I bought it for. I wouldn't get it for long term use. Mine is too thin - not even a quarter inch. I wish the socket were stronger; it gives me a feel as if it would twist under demanding use. And the real annoyance is that the blade is sharpened with a single bevel. I have enough trouble steering a split without the froe taking the wheel from me! YMMV, Gary Katsanis Albion New York, USA -----------------------------------------From: "John Ruth" To: oldtools@g... Cc: Sent: Wednesday April 21 2021 2:49:18PM Subject: Re: [oldtools] Froe made from vehicular leaf spring Froe-less Galoots: I just stumbled on this while searching for something else: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B089MC9PRC/ref=sspa_mw_detail_6?ie=UTF8&psc=1&pd_ rd_i=B089MC9PRCp13NParams&smid=A3CRDQGDJQTW41 /> The description looks very promising. John Ruth Driven indoors by a cold weather front with thunderstorms Links: ------ [1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub |
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273486 | Paul Honore <lawnguy44@g...> | 2021‑04‑22 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
$3 cheaper ($29.99) if you buy from autobodynow (another Amazon seller). Does that weld look ok? |
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273487 | Michael Suwczinsky <nicknaylo@g...> | 2021‑04‑22 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
Long out of context but, Froes are on the mind so.. Fancy Froe (wrought, wrapped, welded, etched) would be like a solid ebony, ivory tipped plow, with inlay, function the least of its attributes. Been trying to locate a pic of the Alex Bealer Award from ABANA. That's a Froe! Engraved, carved, with a stand, https://www.flickr.com/photos/10735775@N.../51132363939/in/dateposted-public/ (from a 2012 Hammer in-knew it was a cool froe, totally ignorant as to what it was or why SMH) I don't think there's a froe possible that Jim Austin would consider teaching, Not complicated enough, reference his Swedish Axe demo- http://forgedaxes.com/axe-tour-of-norway-and-sweden-part-4/ Recalling those gates hinges, I was surprised to discover a rolled barrel in thick enough steel is just as strong as welded. Bill's projects are often scaled up! I just visited an accomplished smith who has gotten into green woodworking and whose self made froe was a couple of things, very sharp, forged of tool steel, about an inch tall and tough to steer, a punched eye 1x1x3/4 deep. I'll drop off my old one as a pattern for version 2, along with some extra braces, auger bits, drawknife and an adze head-the purge of the duplicates continues. Michael On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 7:42 PM Bill Kasper |
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273488 | Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> | 2021‑04‑22 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
In all of our tool-making lives we’re making choices between something that will function vs something we have the ability to make. Can’t forge a wedge shape blade? Maybe a bevel will suffice. Can’t forge-weld an eye? Maybe a thick wrap will work instead. Don’t have a forge? Some leaf springs have the eye already formed. Don’t want to mess with any of it? Scads of dudes will take your money and get you all set up. Who’s got time for forging tools if what you really want to do is work green wood or make shingles. Figure out what part you WANT to be doing (the woodworking? The tool making? The smelting?) and then order your resources to allow the most of that thing. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO |
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273489 | gary allan may | 2021‑04‑22 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
GGs: Everybody knows that a froe with a sharp shoulder on the top edge---like this 'deluxe' one has---is no good, right? I bought one like it, that had been 'restored' from being mushroomed by splitting firewood with a sledge hammer, and the restorer had painstakingly ground and filed a clean square trailing edge on it. He put a fair amount of work into it, and was pretty proud OF it, and thankfully it wasn't me who had to tell him he'd wasted most of his time. Still, it was worth whatever I paid for it, maybe $30?, and a few minutes with a tailed demon and a few more minutes with a file restored the gently curved butt cheeks of a levering tool that doesn't waste stock. Dogwood for a beater has never been excelled, in my experience, though black locust seems to be just as good... and all the best to all galoots everywhere; gam in OlyWA/USA Michael posted this 'gentleman's froe'---with stand! Been trying to locate a pic of the Alex Bealer Award from ABANA. That's a Froe! Engraved, carved, with a stand, https://www.flickr.com/photos/10735775@N.../51132363939/in/dateposted-public/ (from a 2012 Hammer in-knew it was a cool froe, totally ignorant as to what it was or why SMH) |
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273490 | Don Schwartz <dks@t...> | 2021‑04‑23 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
On 2021-04-22 2:10 p.m., gary allan may via groups.io wrote: > Dogwood for a beater has never been excelled, in my experience, though black locust seems to be just as good... Elm branchwood pretty good too, IMlittleE. Don |
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273491 | Dave <dwchat@h...> | 2021‑04‑23 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
this one looks even more interesting, is that Peter Folansby modeling the usefulness? It must be good! https://www.amazon.com/Timber-Tuff-TMW-62-Shingle- Froe/dp/B01LZ56XIS/ref=bmx_5?pd_rd_w=1USYO&pf_rd_p=b56a886c-2bb4-4e74-b4cf-23d7a 76693c8&pf_rd_r=NC7FY234QWGWJYMB460X&pd_rd_r=efda5a16-7e08-4ff5-ad92-5b37e9af915 4&pd_rd_wg=jO94u&pd_rd_i=B01LZ56XIS&psc=1 |
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273492 | Spike <spikethebike@c...> | 2021‑04‑23 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
Sent from the seat of my pants > On Apr 22, 2021, at 6:20 PM, Dave |
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273494 | gary allan may | 2021‑04‑23 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
I hear about elm's toughness in old books, but have never had a chance to handle any :( How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one cares for none of them! Jane Austen On Thursday, April 22, 2021, 05:19:30 PM PDT, Don Schwartz |
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273495 | Charlie Driggs | 2021‑04‑23 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
> On Apr 23, 2021, at 6:13 PM, gary allan may via groups.io |
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273499 | Bill Kasper <dragon01list@g...> | 2021‑04‑26 | Re: Froe made from vehicular leaf spring |
alder branch knob with a nice debarked handle works well, too. On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 1:10 PM gary may |
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