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Hi group, Let me offer a not so short intro. Name's Mike Weldon and my =
old tools interest was by chance but now I am addicted. I was an =
electrician for 24 years here in the Central Valley of California. =
Stepped off a conveyor belt one day a few years ago and that was it, =
blew out my knee. After 6 surgeries and more to come I fell into =
collectors tools.                                                        =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                          My father and =
I have always shared the enjoyment of woodworking but since the injury I =
have been unable to do much. So during the time between surgeries I =
taught myself the computer. Well about 2 months ago I get a call from =
dad asking if I would like to sell some old tools for a buddy of his on =
the net. So we set a day to go take a look at the collection. So here I =
go thinking the guy has 15 or 20 tools he wants to dump and I can charge =
him a fee and broker them on the "bay".                                  =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                So here =
we go to check out the tools, now I have spent my life working with hand =
tools and have always enjoyed fine tools so I figure I'm not walking =
into this blind right. Well when I show up I'm lead into a 40' by 80' =
metal building. It's full of tools from this gentlemen's past and his =
fathers past. He's 86. So far I have cataloged 800 tools and am still =
working on the second work bench out of 20. I am finding stuff you would =
not believe or like me may have no idea what it is. I shoot about 120 =
pictures a week and come home and search the net and catalogs to se what =
I have. The Donnelly catalogue though new is about wore out and I now =
remember what on what page.                                              =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                  So in closing what I have started to do is put up a =
site to sell all this stuff. Stop by and take a look. Join another mail =
list if you dare and please offer advice. Thanks for your time.          =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                                                         =
                                   Mike Weldon,                          =
                                                                         =
                                                             =
www.oldtoolsandstuff.com            =20

Yeah, I agree.  The prices are out of my range.

Jim Thompson

Nice intro Mike, but the asking prices are ridiculously high.

At 08:31 AM 9/10/00 -0700, Mike Weldon wrote: 
>... Well when I show up I'm lead into a 40' by 80' metal building. 
> It's full of tools from this gentlemen's past and his fathers past. 
> ...what I have started to do is put up a site to sell all this stuff. 
            

Well,
If MJD's catalogue is his main reference, he probably figured he stumbled
into a gold mine.

> Nice intro Mike, but the asking prices are ridiculously high.
>
> At 08:31 AM 9/10/00 -0700, Mike Weldon wrote:
> >... Well when I show up I'm lead into a 40' by 80' metal building.
> > It's full of tools from this gentlemen's past and his fathers past.
> > ...what I have started to do is put up a site to sell all this stuff.
>
>
>
>
>

Jim Nelson wrote:

> Nice intro Mike, but the asking prices are ridiculously high.

I'm afraid I've got to agree with Jim here (I don't mean I'm afraid to agree
with Jim, rather I hate to express a negative opinion on your effort...  ;-)

I perused the planes and saws, and they all seem to be reasonably nice,
user-grade tools (kinda hard to tell from the pictures - it would help to
have slightly larger, brighter pictures, and perhaps from more than one
angle). However, for reasonably nice, user grade tools, the prices are
overly steep.

- Bill Taggart

The prices are about 2 to 10 times as much what I see as "going prices".
Anything repaired, missing parts or altered is 10-50% of a catalog price.
Anything in great, nearly unused condition is 100% of a catalog price.

I did not see anything rare or in excellent condition to even begin to
approach the prices. Using Martin's Catalog as a price guide is a mistake
(made that one myself!)

Clarke Green
______________________________________________
C. A. Green Woodworking - Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
Web site - http://cagreen.tripod.com/wood/index.htm

 
> I did not see anything rare or in excellent condition to even begin to
> approach the prices. Using Martin's Catalog as a price guide is a mistake
> (made that one myself!)
>
    Clarke, and whomever it may concern, I hope you take this question in
the spirit it is asked.  I am curious as to how Martin's catalog is so often
the reference found by those who are just getting into tools?  I have
noticed this on the Internet as well as local acquaintences.  People have
offered me tools for sale and will quote me a price.  I suppose the shock on
my face prompts them to hold up a copy of Martin's catalog and explain they
got their "comperables" from it.  I make it a practice not to confront or
insult anyone for this because it is their tool and they may ask any darn
price they want.  But it does leave me wondering how they typically get
connected with that catalog and not, say, one of the other web based
vendors, or a prices realized list from the auction of a local tool
collectors association.

Regards,
Steve - expressing thanks to Roger and the BAGS for photos of the recent
gathering

Stephen Reynolds wrote:
>  [...] But it does leave me wondering how they typically get
>connected with that catalog and not, say, one of the other web based
>vendors, or a prices realized list from the auction of a local tool
>collectors association.

My guess would be:

1] It's very well-known.

2] It's very well-done: it _looks_ authoritative.

3] But I suspect simple wishful thinking plays the greatest part.

I mean, if you were just getting started, and had no other basis to work
from, which set of pricings would _you_ prefer were true for the stuff you
wanted to sell:  MJD's or the prices realized at the country auction on the
edge of your town?

In short, I think it's basically the same reason that "Antiques Roadshow"
is so popular.  ("Surely my #4 is as good as the one MJD's charging $250
for; besides, it's even prettier, it's blue...")

N

I think it goes like this.
They have 30 or so sources of information.
They go through all of them and find the one with the highest prices.
They hide twenty-nine of the sources with "other" prices, and hold up Martin's
catalog in your face hoping that is sufficient to get your jaw up off the
floor.

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-oldtools@w...
[mailto:owner-oldtools@w... Behalf Of Stephen
Reynolds
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2000 6:04 PM
To: cagreen@k... OLDTOOLS@w...
Subject: Re: intro



> I did not see anything rare or in excellent condition to even begin to
> approach the prices. Using Martin's Catalog as a price guide is a mistake
> (made that one myself!)
>
    Clarke, and whomever it may concern, I hope you take this question in
the spirit it is asked.  I am curious as to how Martin's catalog is so often
the reference found by those who are just getting into tools?  I have
noticed this on the Internet as well as local acquaintences.  People have
offered me tools for sale and will quote me a price.  I suppose the shock on
my face prompts them to hold up a copy of Martin's catalog and explain they
got their "comperables" from it.  I make it a practice not to confront or
insult anyone for this because it is their tool and they may ask any darn
price they want.  But it does leave me wondering how they typically get
connected with that catalog and not, say, one of the other web based
vendors, or a prices realized list from the auction of a local tool
collectors association.

Regards,
Steve - expressing thanks to Roger and the BAGS for photos of the recent
gathering

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Steve wrote....."
.  I am curious as to how Martin's catalog is so often
> the reference found by those who are just getting into tools? ...  it does
leave me wondering how they typically get
> connected with that catalog and not, say, one of the other web based
> vendors, or a prices realized list from the auction of a local tool
> collectors association......"
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
   Martin D. promotes his catalogs new and old ones pretty heavily as "Price
Guides" in various antique news papers and publications and I imagine lots
of non tool antique dealers and other people are exposed to them rather then
how should we say, ahem ... other venues that have a more realistic prices
for tools. I have a friend that has a antique shop and he  gets a good deal
on his obsolete catalogs and sells them out of his shop as price guides.He's
not a Tool man but now buys tools because of the high prices he sees them
for in the catalog, don't think he sells many though.Human nature as it is
you are more likely to go with the "price guide" with the highest prices
esp. when what you have is identical to the one in the guide.I had a friend
that was disappointed that his plane which was NIB didn't go for as much on
ebay as the identical ,[and it was identical]one that was in the catalog
with out the box.I told him his sold  for what I thought was more then a
fair price and maybe the catalog one didn't,[I don't know]...  I imagine
Martin D. sells lots and lots of tools but I would bet he makes out better
with the catalog sales and I always sort of think of him as a catalog and
"price guide" seller that also sells tools, nothing wrong with that of
course...............Todd

Welcome Adam

>and give anybody and everybody a chance to tell me "all those things I wish
someone had told me >when I was starting out"

Okie dokie, here goes:(remember, you asked for it.)

Build a good bench.

Buy the best tools. They are nearly always a bit more expensive but will
save you ten times what a bad tool will mess up. While this is true skill
can only be built on practice, not purchase.

Don't buy machines until you can work wood by hand efficently and
effectively.

Buy good wood, (you can't polish a turd, you can just sort of smooth it out
a bit)

Read, read, read

Watch and talk to good craftsmen, take their advice.

Above all work wood. Don't spend all your time talking about it and looking
through catalogs, make stuff, even if it is bad stuff.

Remember, there is no jesting with edge tools.


Clarke Green
______________________________________________
C. A. Green Woodworking - Kennett Square, Pennsylvania
Web site - http://cagreen.tripod.com/wood/index.htm

From: Esther Heller

Steve asked:

                I am curious as to how Martin's catalog is so often
the reference found by those who are just getting into tools?  I have
noticed this on the Internet as well as local acquaintences.  People have
offered me tools for sale and will quote me a price.  I suppose the shock
on
my face prompts them to hold up a copy of Martin's catalog and explain they
got their "comperables" from it.  I make it a practice not to confront or
insult anyone for this because it is their tool and they may ask any darn
price they want.  But it does leave me wondering how they typically get
connected with that catalog and not, say, one of the other web based
vendors, or a prices realized list from the auction of a local tool
collectors association.


I suspect two things, we are still a secret society that is not
obvious to the outside world, and advertising.  How much advertising
does MJD do in the ww mags compared to everyone else?  How big
are the ads compared to everyone else?  (I don't buy them very often
so I really don't know the answers.)  If someone buys a mag or two
and looks at the ads to try to educate themselves, this could be
an easily predictable result.  To use a prices realised list you
have to: 1. realise such a thing exists  2. figure out who the
"appropriate" auctions are 3. Figure out the descriptions and
tool condition shorthand.  Keeping in mind we are a secret society
and they probably also have no idea of the existance of MWTCA and
friends, or the auction scene....

Some gentle explanation of MJD's clientele and tool condition
to the guy who doesn't realise might be a kindness if they don't
look like the type to be offended.  Few newcomers understand the
distinction between type 6 and type 16, or how clean "Fine+"
really is.

I have to echo Clarke:

Work wood!  NEVER have I made something worse than the previous project;
each time I am astonished at how much easier and faster than last time.  NOT
because of all the books and magazines and catalogs, but because of
practice.

And buy the best tools you can afford.  I'd rather be the weakness in my
work, then have my puny skills pushing against the limits of my tool.
("This carving looks horrid; am I having so much trouble because the tool is
screwed up or because I am?")

-Shannon M. Salb

----- Original Message (chopped, not snipped)-----
From: "Stephen Reynolds"   I am curious as to how Martin's catalog is so
often
> the reference found by those who are just getting into tools?  ...  But it
does leave me wondering how they typically get
> connected with that catalog



I've seen MJD's catalog mixed in with Beanie Baby and every other sort of
price guides.  I asked if they had Walter's, and they said no.  I bet the
same is true at other purveyors, and that MJD's catalog is often the first
price guide people find when they go looking for one.

I also notice, that it can often be found behind the counter in many antique
stores with extreme prices.

Paul Pflumm

From: Esther Heller

Adam is opening the gates:

and give anybody and everybody a chance to tell me "all those things I wish
someone had told me when I was starting out"  :-)


This isn't so much what I wish I had known as something I figured
out.  When I learned to make my own clothes in my late teens, my
fussiness about workmanship increased as my workmanship did.  A
big problem in woodworking was my fussiness was greater than my
abilities.  The trick is to figure out things to make while practicing
your technique. The old "make a bunch of boxes to hold your crap
until they don't look like crap" to practice dovetails is an example
of how to do it.  Basic bookshelves are also good, the books hide
the details.

The other trick is to take time on details like finishing.  I have
been playing on the pottery slope (first wheel throwing class this
summer) and I notice the general facility working with my hands and
the willingness to fuss a few details from sewing and woodworking
seem to carry over to pottery nicely.  Trying to take your time on the
details that matter (cutting to precise lines and finishing) does
more to improve the general "look" than a lot of agonising over
getting the optimal tool (heresy I know!).

Welcome!

Esther

Clarke wrote:

> Welcome Adam

[SNIP other excellent advise]

> Read, read, read

I gotta say - it's been my experience that this is a VERY valuable way to
learn. There are TONS of books, magazines, etc. published about tools,
woodworking, the history and use, etc. etc...

It's also been my experience that many people DON'T take advantage of these
resources and actually READ this stuff! In some classes and get-togethers
I've been to, I've been surprised at stuff that I already knew, that I
expected the others to know, but they didn't! I truly don't have all that
much actual hands-on experience (working on that all the time), but I've
done lots of reading, and continue to do so. I value knowledge as much as
experience...

- Bill Taggart
- On the road in Newark, DE

Shannon wrote:

> And buy the best tools you can afford.  I'd rather be the weakness in my
> work, then have my puny skills pushing against the limits of my tool.
> ("This carving looks horrid; am I having so much trouble because the tool is
> screwed up or because I am?")

A carpenter friend says " a true craftsman never blames his tools - that's
why I borrow yours whenever I can"

Ed Minch

Adam asks for it:

> and give anybody and everybody a chance to tell me "all those things I
wish
> someone had told me when I was starting out"  :-)

First and foremost - learn to sharpen. Your early efforts are often doomed
to failure because the tools aren't sharp - can't function properly because
they aren't sharp - and the new user doesn't know how they should function
or how to sharpen them.

All else will follow - slowly at first, but what's your hurry?

Alan N. Graham

Alan N. Graham comments:


> First and foremost - learn to sharpen. Your early efforts are often doomed
> to failure because the tools aren't sharp - can't function properly
because
> they aren't sharp - and the new user doesn't know how they should function
> or how to sharpen them.

I whole heartedly agree with Alan's observation.  I can recall a time soon
after deciding to use one of my first planes.  I had wanted to take off a
bit of the years worth of gouges, nicks, and grooves from my old maple bench
top.  I sure messed thast thing up and it took quite a while before i got
the plane to cut decently, or at least to what I thought was a decent cut.
Several years later I can flatten and smooth that same top in a few hours
rather that days and week, but I sure didn't know that was possible back
then.

Best Regards,
John

Getting ready to put the finish on a 14"W x 40"L x 33"H maple and black
walnut inlay table as the temp continues to drop in MichiGalootLand

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>

>Adam asks for it:
>
>> and give anybody and everybody a chance to tell me "all those things I
>wish
>> someone had told me when I was starting out"  :-)
>
>First and foremost - learn to sharpen. Your early efforts are often doomed
>to failure because the tools aren't sharp - can't function properly because
>they aren't sharp - and the new user doesn't know how they should function
>or how to sharpen them.
>

Yeah, I can relate. Yesterday, I tried out some of that "scary sharp" stuff
I've heard about on this list. I got a nice flat sheet of glass, a bunch of
various grades of paper, and some spray glue. I started by working on the
sole of my No6 user plane. I made some progress on the coarse emery paper,
but I prolly need some more of it since it stopped cutting and my arms got
tired. The plane is now reasonably flat. Then I started in on the iron. The
iron I think is 2 3/8" wide, which is wider than any stone that I have. This
is where this abrasive paper really is great, sharpening wide blades so you
don't have to go by a 40$ 3" wide stone. I started with coarse because the
edge was not only curved, but crooked. I ended up at 600 grit, and I wanted
to see what that level of grit would do for me. I assembled the plane and
wow, this thing really works! Smooth cutting, nice long tight curls of paper
thin wood, easy to push, etc. I have a question, what is the angle of the
bevel on the iron supposed to be: 30 or 25 degrees??

Be seeing you.

Dirk Wright

Dirk Wright asks:

I have a question, what is the angle of the bevel on the iron supposed to
be: 30 or 25 degrees??

There will probably be more opinions on this than there are members on the
porch, but I'll give you mine anyway.

I usually use the following as guidelines:

35 degrees - mortise chisels, heavy use firmers

30 degrees - standard plane blades

25 degrees - standard chisels, final smoothing planes

20 degrees - skew blades

15 - 20 drgrees - paring chisels

As a general rule, the heavier the shaving I need to take with the tool, the
higher the bevel angle I use. Finer shavings require lower bevel angles.

Alan N. Graham

"By reading this message you invalidate any warantee on the information
contained herein, whether real, implied or inferred."

"You pays your money - you takes your choice"

"YMMV"