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276656 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2022‑12‑02 Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
I have been thinking to build a miter plane for shooting (chuting).  
Basically, a Krenovian plane with a thin side wall.... maybe a side wall 
of aluminum or steel....the rest could be wood.

I wonder if a wood plane has enough mass to do its job, or is this a 
better idea in metal only, if only because of the mass?

If I do build it in wood, what wood should I choose?  Ipe is heavy and 
cheap and available in construction sizes....... Rosewood and Lignum, 
etc, is too $$$,  Oak, Maple,Walnut too light.  I do not have a s source 
for Osage Orange.... and it may not be a good choice anyway.... Purple 
Heart is available, reasonable in price ( I have a chunk in the shop 
that could easily be used)

I have a think strip of Lignum with which to make a nice slippery 
surface to ride on or use wa the cutting face....

I do want it to be a skew design, but with a perpendicular blade, like 
the really fancy LN types....This only means that the ramp for the blade 
is a bit of a weird, rotated bird.

Size?  I was thinking 9-16 inches long, and a blade width of 1- 1 1/2 
inches..... mostly to accommodate 4/4 wood...   Thick is a requirement.  
Maybe 1/8 inch.... maybe thicker.... maybe not....Maybe an old, tapered 
blade would work as well...?

Does anyone have an old blade to sell that might work?  it does need to 
be FLAT.  I can sharpen it.

Alternate: Does anyone have an infill miter plane that needs a new home?

Complete with all parts, and or in working condition, optional.

Any thoughts?  Ideas? Experience to share?

-- 
Frank Filippone
BMWRed735i@g...
276658 Kirk Eppler 2022‑12‑02 Re: Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
I could share spec on this beastie, waiting to be put into usable condition
and given a whirl in my shop.  The specs are mostly in the picture caption.

https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/Woodworking-Tools/i-p8nfrXr

I've had it for a few years, and it's just waiting for me to create enough
shop space to give it a whirl once I sharpen it.  I ,can take some more pix
over the weekend of the metal bits etc that aren't seen in this pic


Kirk in Half Moon Bay, finally settling down after a morning of chaos.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:17 PM Frank Filippone 
wrote:

> I have been thinking to build a miter plane for shooting (chuting).
> ....
> I wonder if a wood plane has enough mass to do its job, or is this a
> better idea in metal only, if only because of the mass?
>
> If I do build it in wood, what wood should I choose?  Ipe is heavy and
> cheap and available in construction sizes....... Rosewood and Lignum,
> etc, is too $$$,  Oak, Maple,Walnut too light.  I do not have a s source
> for Osage Orange.... and it may not be a good choice anyway.... Purple
> Heart is available, reasonable in price ( I have a chunk in the shop
> that could easily be used)
> ...
> I do want it to be a skew design, but with a perpendicular blade, like
> the really fancy LN types...
>
> Size?  I was thinking 9-16 inches long, and a blade width of 1- 1 1/2
> inches..... mostly to accommodate 4/4 wood...   Thick is a requirement.
> Maybe 1/8 inch.... maybe thicker.... maybe not....Maybe an old, tapered
> blade would work as well...?
>
> Does anyone have an old blade to sell that might work?  it does need to
> be FLAT.  I can sharpen it.
>
> ....
>
> Any thoughts?  Ideas? Experience to share?
>
>


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
276659 Stephen Rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> 2022‑12‑02 Re: Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
That reminds me of a wooden version of the very rare Rogers Miter plane.
Obviously much older (18th century?). Wonder if Rogers based his idea on it?
Stephen 
San Francisco where it’s currently in the 40s!
276660 Claudio DeLorenzi <claudio@d...> 2022‑12‑02 Re: Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
Kirk: OMG, that is a beast!  I've never seen one in real life.  Have you tried
it out as is?
276662 Kirk Eppler 2022‑12‑02 Re: Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
No, I have not cleared off enough bench space to give it a real run yet.
Due to the front overhang, I need the full depth of my bench to test it
without hitting the wall.   Pulled the blades, and they weren't fully
sharp, so I set it aside in favor of easier targets (skewed blades make me
think really hard to resharpen them)

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, CA

On Fri, Dec 2, 2022 at 12:57 PM Claudio DeLorenzi 
wrote:

> Kirk: OMG, that is a beast!  I've never seen one in real life.  Have you
> tried it out as is?
>
>
> 
>
>
>

-- 
Kirk Eppler
*Planned Time Off*
*no major events planned*
Principal Engineer
Pharm Dev Processing
eppler.kirk@g...
650 225-3911


-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA 
276665 Chuck Taylor 2022‑12‑03 Re: Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
Frank,

You wrote:

> I have been thinking to build a miter plane for shooting (chuting). 
> ... 
> I wonder if a wood plane has enough mass to do its job, or is 
> this a better idea in metal only, if only because of the mass?
> If I do build it in wood, what wood should I choose?  Ipe is heavy
> and cheap and available in construction sizes....... 

I made a Krenov-style plane using Jatoba (a.k.a. "Brazilian Cherry") and a Hock
iron, and I'm quite happy with it. Like Ipe, Jatoba is widely used for flooring,
which means it should be widely available. Specific gravity of Jatoba is 0.91,
so it's pretty heavy. It's an oily wood, so it is good to use acetone when
preparing surfaces for gluing.

> ... I do want it to be a skew design, but with a perpendicular blade, like
> the really fancy LN types....This only means that the ramp for the blade 
> is a bit of a weird, rotated bird.

As an alternative to making a plane with a skewed iron, you may want to consider
making a shooting board with a ramp. That way a non-skewed plane iron encounters
the wood at a skewed angle. This is what mine looks like:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q3y0yk2093uxocx/ShootingBoard.jpg?dl=0

You can still make a plane to use with the shooting board, or you can use it
with a plane you already own. My Krenov-style plane with flat sides works fine
with my ramped shooting board, although I often reach for a low-angle plane from
Lee Valley instead. An advantage of making a Krenov-style plane is that you can
make it whatever shape you want.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA
276666 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2022‑12‑03 Re: Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
Kirk and Chuck have given me new ideas.....

The idea of a skewed design had nothing to do with making the iron in a  
way that it was not sharpened at other than 90 degrees... the Veritas is 
the idea I would follow...

But Chuck brought up a ramp..... which means the plane can be more 
trivial.. basically a regular old plane, Krenov Style,,,,,

In a former life, I had access to all the Jatoba a man could use in a 
lifetime.... but alas, I moved on....

The piece of Purple heart was given to me by my son maybe 25 years ago.  
It would be nice to use it......  But IPE is 20% higher SG... ( 
translation.. heavier by 20%)

I do have some Ipe hidden away... must check sizes.....

The reason for a Krenov style?  Because in making this plane, for this 
purpose, it seems more logical to have the cutter centered on the cut... 
in a #5 plane, the blade is set about 30% down the body....

Then Scott has this truly magnificent beast, with push you pull me 
blades.... that got my attention..... Basically 2 Krenov planes mounted 
together.....   Not a lot more difficult.... with the advantage of using 
both sides of your shooting board... and half the sharpening.....


Scott.. how long is that beast?

Frank Filippone
BMWRed735i@g...
276667 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2022‑12‑03 Re: Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
Whoops.,. I meant Kirk.... Scott has not chimed in as yet.....

Frank Filippone
BMWRed735i@g...
276668 Adam R. Maxwell 2022‑12‑03 Re: Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
> On Dec 2, 2022, at 12:16 , Frank Filippone  wrote:
> 
> I have been thinking to build a miter plane for shooting (chuting).
Basically, a Krenovian plane with a thin side wall.... maybe a side wall of
aluminum or steel....the rest could be wood.
> 
> I wonder if a wood plane has enough mass to do its job, or is this a better
idea in metal only, if only because of the mass?

I think they're in metal because a mitre plane is a low-angle, bevel-up plane,
and the short grain in a wooden bed can't provide the support needed behind the
blade. I have a wooden mitre plane, come to think of it, but the bed angle isn't
as low as you can get with steel.

I've made a couple of infill mitre planes, and they're pleasing to use, but a
sharp blade does more for shooting than anything. This is good news if you want
to make a Krenov plane with the blade bevel down, as it should work just fine.
I've used a wooden jack, coffin smoother, and even a 60-1/2 on a shooting board
successfully.

Mass can help, especially if you mix it with velocity (I favored a L-N #8 for
shooting when starting out), but it also makes it easier to screw things up
quickly. It didn't help that I was shooting some pretty ugly sawn edges as a
newbie, and trying to remove too much material.

Adam
276671 Chuck Taylor 2022‑12‑03 Re: Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
Frank wrote:
>
> I have been thinking to build a miter plane for shooting (chuting).
Basically, a Krenovian plane with a thin side wall.... maybe a side wall of
aluminum or steel....the rest could be wood.
> 

And Adam responded:

> I think they're in metal because a mitre plane is a low-angle, bevel-up plane,
> and the short grain in a wooden bed can't provide the support needed behind 
> the blade. I have a wooden mitre plane, come to think of it, but the bed angle
> isn't as low as you can get with steel. 

> Adam continued:

> I've made a couple of infill mitre planes, ...

They are beauties, too! I just went back to Adam's 2013 posting about one of his
and unfortunately the photo links in his post are no longer valid. Adam, maybe
you could re-post those photos?

>  ....and they're pleasing to use, but a sharp blade does more for shooting
>  than anything. This is good news if you want to make a Krenov plane with 
> the blade bevel down, as it should work just fine. I've used a wooden jack, 
> coffin smoother, and even a 60-1/2 on a shooting board successfully.

I certainly agree that the sharpness is hugely important.

One more point though: Everything else equal, the cutting angle determines how
the iron cuts. For a bevel-up plane, the cutting angle equals the bed angle of
the plane plus the bevel angle of the iron. Typical numbers for a cast-iron low-
angle bevel-up plane are a bed angle of 12 degrees and a bevel angle of 25
degrees, for a cutting angle of 37 degrees.

For a bevel-down plane, the bed angle and the cutting angle are the same. That
means you can build a bevel-down Krenov-style plane with a bed angle of 37
degrees and get the same 37-degree cutting angle that you get with a low-angle
bevel-up cast-iron plane. A 37-degree bed angle is certainly viable with a
wooden plane. Vic Tesolin's article in FWW #288 (Mar/Apr 2021) describes his
build of such a plane.

Note that a conventional bevel-down iron plane has a bed angle and a cutting
angle of 45 degrees, which isn't that different from the 37-degree cutting angle
of a bevel-up low angle plane. Hence we shouldn't be surprised at Adam's
statement that ordinary jack planes, smoothers, and even block planes work will
just fine with a shooting board, provided that their irons are sufficiently
sharp.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA
276672 Mpfiller 2022‑12‑03 Re: Thinking about Miter ( Mitre) planes...... Shooting p[lane.....
In Japan virtually all planes (kanna) are wood, usually Japanese white oak or
red oak.  Both are different than the oaks in the US, closer to an evergreen
pine.  SG .64-.68
Anyway, shooting planes are fairly common, about the same construction of
standard smoothing planes (hira-ganna).
A standard plane is about 270-290 mm long, with a 70mm blade, 38 degree bedding
angle, bevel 25 degrees, inserted bevel down.
The two major differences for a naga-dai (long body) kanna is the length, around
390-410mm, and the blade is offset about 10mm to the side.  This allows the
plane to set on a rabbet in your shooting board, and the blade won't chew it up,
being a little higher.  It also allows the user to plane that face square to the
bottom, as over time (a long time) the side, rubbing as the bottom surface, can
wear a little.
The only other difference (I can think of this early in the day) between the
standard smoother and the long body is how the sole is fettled.  In a smoother
the sole makes contact right in front of the blade, and at the leading end,
nothing in between, and nothing after the blade.  The nagadai kanna is more
often than not set with the contact points at each end, and again just in front
of the blade, so 3 points vs 2.
Japanese planes (and saws) cut on the pull stroke.  It is not a "power through
the cut" like in the west, because the worker is often just seated on a cushion.
Japanese planes can take verrrry thin shavings, typically in the 15-20 micron
range, and in competition as low as .003mm.  This means each stroke is easier,
removing very little material.  You don't need a lot of mass when the blade is
sharp.
Similarly Japanese saws, cutting on the pull, where the blade is always in
tension, the kerf can be as little as .2mm.  Again, because you aren't chiseling
out a lot of wood with each stroke, there is very little resistance.  And they
cut fast, with almost no downforce.
Japanese saws are slowly gaining acceptance in the west, particularly the new
disposable blade variety, with impulse hardened teeth
Kanna take effort to set up, not awful, but takes getting used to.  And the
blades, while having a very hard cutting edge (RC60-65), have been designed for
easy sharpening, with most of the blade made of soft iron.  It actually takes
less time to sharpen a J blade than any Stanley, because the water stones have
fresh grit all the time, and only the thin layer of hard metal provides any
resistance.
If you get a chance to try a Japanese plane do it!  It is so much easier than
pushing a 605 that I've virtually switched over to kanna exclusively.
Cheers

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