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274172 Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> 2021‑07‑26 Ramia workbenches
Does anyone have personal experience with Ramia workbenches? I’m considering
purchasing one, but I can’t find any real world reviews. If anyone has any
experience or info about them that they’d we willing to share, I’d really
appreciate it.  Thanks!

-- 
I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food.
274173 William Fariss 2021‑07‑26 Re: Ramia workbenches
From what I see, they are nothing more than the usual high priced piece of
wooden trash masquerading as a workbench.

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​
274175 Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
William - what makes you say that? Have you used one? 

-- 
I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food.
274176 Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
I guess I should give a little bit more info. I have a temporary bench I built
but it no longer meets my needs. I have a small space and therefore the biggest
my bench can be is five feet. I was completely planning on building a Nicholson
style bench (a la Mike Siemsen) but with the cost of wood these days, it made me
consider this bench. I also have a decent amount of work being generated by my
side hustle so I am having trouble legitimately finding the time to build myself
a bench. This Ramos bench is made out of beech by a family company in the Czech
Republic and being sold by Highland Woodworking, Rockler, etc so I *expect* it
to be well made. However, the legs do seem undersized so it has me questioning.

-- 
I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food.
274177 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
GG's:

I wouldn't know a Ramia workbench if it jumped up and bit me, but that's not
going to stop me from making the following comments!

WEIGHT. MASS. These are keys to a satisfactory workbench. You do not want the
bench to move while you are whaling away on a big firmer chisel. You don't want
it to rock to the left as you push that extra-wide Norris smoother from the
right.

When you read the weight specification of a commercial bench, distinguish
"weight of bench" from "shipping weight." The latter obviously includes
packaging, which might be substantial for any imported bench.

( I've seen "torsion box" bench designs which are very stiff but don't weigh
much. These need "ballast," but might be quite satisfactory. )

A gratuitous comment about lumber prices: it doesn't have to be new lumber. If
you can get permission, many businesses discard pallets, skids, etc.
Demolition. Craigslist. Local sawmills.

I've had several benches over the years, so unless you are a very senior
citizen, it's unlikely that any bench is your "final" bench.  So, don't obsess
about it.

When I moved into my current home, I bought a "Whitegate" tropical hardwood
bench to bootstrap getting the workshop up and running.  Certainly not a great
bench, but it would be a place to build a great bench. That was always a pipe
dream until I lucked upon a terrific antique bench at an auction.

John Ruth
"He who would a good bench win
Must split thick, and hew thin"
-Underhill
274178 Spike <spikethebike@c...> 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
Good day Toolies! 
 The problem with that bench is obviously the skinny legs. The solution is some
sheet goods applied to the back and sides. Make the base into a rigid box and
Robert is your mother’s brother. This also addresses the mass issue, somewhat.
 Best, Spike

Sent from the seat of my pants
274179 James <jlb5542@g...> 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
What is it that you have time to do? Seems like building a bench is going
to take away from the side gig. The Hoffman and Hammer premium german is on
sale, even. Let go of the romance of building your own - that just sells
books for C.S.
274180 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
Hey Dan,

The biggest issue I see with this bench is mass and the spindly
undercarriage.  This doesn't mean you can't "fix" the issues with
amendments to the bench but you will be investing time and material to do
so.  Then again, you may be able to get around some of these deficiencies
if you decide to attach the back end of the bench to the wall of your
shop.  This wouldn't work well for me but your mileage may vary.

I did a shallow dive into the interwebs looking for pictures and video of
this bench and didn't find exactly what I was hoping to see.  However, you
can see indications of the issues that will drive many people crazy in this
video.

https://youtu.be/4xRDdv8UI7A?t=322

Even when taking shallow passes with a sharp iron on a forgiving species
you can see movement in this bench. And the knockdown construction of this
ensures this movement will only amplify over the course of successive
planning sessions.  It came as no surprise to me that they decided against
showing a piece being scrubbed to dimension in the video.

Also, if you clamp to your bench top, the underside of this bench is also
constructed to make that frustrating.  I had a Lervad for years before the
bench I have now.  I ended up filling the voids on the underside of the
bench with Doug Fir to add mass and allow me to clamp at any point on the
bench using common "f" style clamps.  I also completely rebuilt the
undercarriage.

I'm not sure what kind of time pressure you are under but even in Old Tool
heck out west we see equal or better benches come up on Craigslist
regularly at 1/3rd that price or less.  In many of those cases the vise is
worth the price and you are getting the bench for free.

Good luck with whatever path you choose.

Paul, in SF
274181 Paul Honore <lawnguy44@g...> 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
I'm not trying to be funny but have you looked at the Harbor Freight model?

https://www.harborfreight.com/tool-storage-
organization/workbenches/workbenches-1/60-in-4-drawer-hardwood-
workbench-63395.html

At $159, doesn't look all that bad. The reviews (if you can trust them) 
are positive and with a few modifications like a front mounted vise and 
some more weight, it might do the job.

Paul H.
274183 gtgrouch@r... 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
I have a Horror Freight lookalike. The top is thin, and the thickness
in mine is from the apron attached all around it. It's also light.
It's a good start, but it will need significant effort to remake it
from a 'bench-shaped object' into a real bench. 

Mine is a keeper though. It was given by my wife, who isn't around to
give me anything more. 

YMMV, Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

	-----------------------------------------From: "Paul Honore" 
To: oldtools@g...
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday July 27 2021 11:42:50AM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Ramia workbenches

 I'm not trying to be funny but have you looked at the Harbor Freight
model?

https://www.harborfreight.com/tool-storage-
organization/workbenches/workbenches-1/60-in-4-drawer-hardwood-
workbench-63395.html
 />
 At $159, doesn't look all that bad. The reviews (if you can trust
them)
 are positive and with a few modifications like a front mounted vise
and
 some more weight, it might do the job.

 Paul H.

 On 7/26/2021 7:20 PM, Dan Beck wrote:
 > Does anyone have personal experience with Ramia workbenches? I’m
considering purchasing one, but I can’t find any real world reviews.
If anyone has any experience or info about them that they’d we
willing to share, I’d really appreciate it. Thanks!
 >

 



Links:
------
[1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub
274185 Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
Many interesting points being made. Thanks for everyone’s input. You haven’t
helped me at all, lol.

It seems the general consensus is that the legs don’t seem beefy enough so
additional work would need to be done in order to modify it. At that point, I
feel like I might as well just go with my original plan and build my own.


-- 
I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food.
274187 Stephen Rosenthal <srosenthal26@g...> 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
Dan,

You may want to consider one of these as a temporary solution:
http://blumtool.com/?page_id=50

I picked up the “Original” version for $150 on CL to use as a bench to build my
regular bench. My main shop is at my property in Mendocino County, but I also
have an apartment in San Francisco, where the Blum now permanently resides. It’s
surprisingly very stable, although I sometimes add a couple of sandbags to the
legs if I’m doing heavy planing. The Baltic Birch top is and will stay dead flat
thanks to the torsion bar construction. It’s ideal for a small space as it can
be set up or collapsed in a matter of minutes.

I guess with shipping it’s not the cheapest, but just a thought. However, if
you’re not in a rush I’d search CL everyday. In the Bay Area, used benches
appear quite often. I was 3/4 of the way into building my bench when a near new
Ulmia Ott appeared for $800. A few weeks later an 8’ Diefenbach with cabinet and
drawers for $1100. Oh well.

Steve
274188 leeburk 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
Depending on which level of Ramia you buy, you would likely do better building
your own.These type of benches tend to "walk around". I had one and ended up
bolting it to the floor and then I cross braced the legs before I was anywhere
near happy with it. Also I put in a stiffening shelf between the legs and put
200 pounds of weightlifting plates and all my metal planes on the shelf. The
vises had their vices too. I still ended up making my own bench.
274189 leeburk 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
I've had great luck building woodworking bench tops out of lengths of
professional laminated 2x4 glulam. Mine is 50" long as I have a small shop and I
installed 3 vises on it including a home made leg vise made with guides of 1/2"
black pipe and pipe caps and a vise screw of course. It actually is my favorite
of the vises. I got the glulam free off a contractors scrap pile as it
apparently was the cutoff from a support beam in the house he was building. At
50 inches it was too small to use anywhere else in a house. This thing is heavy
and about 20" wide and 3 1/2" thick. I put 4x4 legs on it without needing an
apron as there was enough thickness to mortise them into the underside. I cut
out openings appropriate for my pattern maker's vise to mount and a big, old,
beefy Columbian vise on the other end. Leg vise too as I said. And I could put
dog holes anywhere and many of them. The dog holes and the 3 1/2" top thickness
also allows use of the J shaped type of clamp that fits in a dog hole and can be
so handy.
274198 Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
I’d love to see some photos of this bench! 

-- 
I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food.
274208 galoot@l... 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
Quoting Dan Beck :

> Many interesting points being made. Thanks for everyone’s input. You
> haven’t helped me at all, lol.
>
> It seems the general consensus is that the legs don’t seem beefy
> enough so additional work would need to be done in order to modify
> it. At that point, I feel like I might as well just go with my
> original plan and build my own.


Chris Shwarz's Anarchist's Workbench is available free to download (no
id or login) at https://lostartpress.com/products/the-anarchists-workbench
a couple paragraphs up from the table of contents.  He includes a discussion
on improving commercial offerings you might want to read _before_ you buy ;-)
Pay particular attention to appendix B "Working without a workbench"
especially
the "apocalyse" bench.

If I was in your position I would check out the low (usually called Roman but
several styles) workbenches.

Weekend 1  Glue up a top from tuba fours or close equivalent (see the book)

weekend 2 Make some legs

weekend 3 attach legs to top

weekend 4 add holdfasts, funky notch for holdings things, planing stop, etc
don't really need vises

Later if you insist on vises add one, but a Moxon or high-vise will probably
do you.  If you start with the Skansen
(https://blog.lostartpress.com/2021/01/25/djurgarden-meets-rome/
you don't need to get an expensive large leg hole bit (rectangular leg holes).

He had a wonderful video show and tell how to do everything at Colonial
Williamsburg's January conference but I haven't found it online.  I browsed
through as opposed to watched
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1JJdRKHJcQ  but it looks like he covers
the bases how to do things on one.

The low bench can also be auxillary seating or a slightly funky coffee table
in its off hours.  Ingenious Mechanicks reveals all.


Esther  (who has been considering how to tart up a knockdown medieveloid
tuba x bench into a workbench for Pennsic...)
274209 Kirk Eppler 2021‑07‑27 Re: Ramia workbenches
On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 8:21 AM Paul Gardner  wrote:

> Hey Dan,
>
> The biggest issue I see with this bench is mass and the spindly
> undercarriage.  This doesn't mean you can't "fix" the issues with
> amendments to the bench but you will be investing time and material to do
> so.  Then again, you may be able to get around some of these deficiencies
> if you decide to attach the back end of the bench to the wall of your
> shop.  This wouldn't work well for me but your mileage may vary.
>
> Also, if you clamp to your bench top, the underside of this bench is also
> constructed to make that frustrating.  I had a Lervad for years before the
> bench I have now.  I ended up filling the voids on the underside of the
> bench with Doug Fir to add mass and allow me to clamp at any point on the
> bench using common "f" style clamps.  I also completely rebuilt the
> undercarriage.
>
> I'm not sure what kind of time pressure you are under but even in Old Tool
> heck out west we see equal or better benches come up on Craigslist
> regularly at 1/3rd that price or less.  In many of those cases the vise is
> worth the price and you are getting the bench for free.
>

Following up on Paul's lead, I've seen a lot of these lightweight
workbenches (Sjoberg and others) over the years at garage and estate sales,
and they are mostly a facade.  They are shaped like a WW bench, but they
don't have the bits that make it work.

As Paul noted, the top is often a joke.  Often they will have an apron that
hides a 1" thick top, or that hides bits and pieces of 2" thickness around
a 1" thick top.  The thin top makes holdfasts impractical, except their
special made ones which cost a ton of $$$.

Their end vise often racks horribly under any out of parallel force. The
legs have been well covered by others as wimpy and unsubstantial. Lastly,
the drawers are often a POS, and bend / break out of their track.

Like Paul noted, I bought a bench a few years back that I wanted for the QR
vise for ~$100.  The bench was too nice, and kept it in driveway use for a
few years, until the weather bypassed my tarp and broke the glue lines.
The previous owner had bought a Sjoberg top, added 3x3 (laminated 1x) legs
underneath it, added a bunch of wood to mount the QR vise, and a heavy MDF
shelf mounted low, with bracing.  This worked out nice, and I did a few
small projects in the driveway.  (I need to resurrect this bench and get
the top reglued.)  Long way of saying "the Ramia might be a nice starter
kit, some improvements required".

(And as a side note, a few years back the Pinie.CZ planes made quite a stir
here on list.  I managed to pick up 2, one a bargain scrub, the other a
higher end smoother (souvenir when the daughter visited the Czech
Republic).  While both function, neither would be mistaken for an ECE
plane.  I had to sand the entire scrub to make it reasonable to hold, it
was almost prickly.)

I bought my LV bench
<https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/benches-and-
tables/31152-veritas-workbenches>
many
years ago, hardwood base, 230# according to their site, and it would
still move on my garage floor when planing oak.  I got around its lack of
mass by adding a tool  cabinet underneath it.  Filled with many planes from
#5 - #8, it no longer moves.

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/workshop/workbenches/benches-and-
tables/31152-veritas-workbenches

Might be a different way to fix the mass deficiency.
-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, CA, who took a few meetings under the shade
in the front yard today, since we actually saw the sun today.
274227 Brian Ward <bri@a...> 2021‑07‑28 Re: Ramia workbenches
Hi Dan, I think you've gotten some good advice so far. Because your situation
sort of reminds me of where I was when I first started out, I had a look at this
thing (I'm assuming that it's the "Advanced 1500?") to see how it might compare
to my first (weird) workbench.

The bench's base does look a bit flimsy-looking for tougher hand work. In
particular, the dowel joints that hold the tops and bottoms of the trestles to
the legs are not going to cut the mustard. It really needs side stretchers (or
something of that nature) to keep it from racking front-to-back. That's an easy
add. The stretchers in the front and rear might actually be adequate (see below
for knockdown blurb). The legs themselves look just a tad skinny for planing;
they seem to be flexing at the end of Highland's assembly video. You could
laminate something to them to fix that.

They state that the top is 30mm (~1 3/8), beech, with aprons around the edges.
That thickness is actually quite similar to my first bench. What kind of weirds
me out is the way that the top rests on the legs. It seems that only the apron
rests on the trestle tops, with a sort of weird hollow between. With a benchtop
of that thickness, it seems that you'd only really be able to pound on stuff
around the apron near the legs.

I dunno. If I were in your shoes, and knowing what I know now, I would still
build my own. Perhaps relevantly, I made a curious experiment last year that is
a bit under four feet long with a 2.4" top:
https://galoototron.com/tag/auxiliary-workbench/
I put it opposite my main workbench "temporarily," and ended up using it a lot
more than I expected, especially after I made a "bench-on-bench" to go on top. I
was worried that the top wouldn't be thick enough, but that was unfounded.

This got me thinking that if I'd made a slightly longer version of something
like this for my first workbench, with a bench-on-bench, it might have been...
"better" somehow? Well, I dunno, it's not like I can go back and change it. And
I've had the same manner of space constraints as you until very recently.

So space constraints actually relate to knockdown benches, and here's my two
cents. A knockdown workbench can be just as sturdy as anything else, but you
cannot skimp on the size of your components or your joinery. Those stretchers
and legs need to be beefy, and tenoning the legs to the top is preferred even if
you don't glue them.

My main workbench is knockdown. But here's the thing--I've never actually
knocked it down for any of the three moves that it's undergone since I built it.
It took me a long time to guess why. I think it's because it's not very big (a
six-footer, and not terribly deep), so it's generally easier to carry and
manipulate through doorways and staircases than something that's more difficult
to flip upright and turn.
274228 Bill Ghio 2021‑07‑28 Re: Ramia workbenches

            
274229 Bill Ghio 2021‑07‑28 Re: Ramia workbenches
> On Jul 28, 2021, at 2:18 PM, Brian Ward  wrote:
> 
> 
> I dunno. If I were in your shoes, and knowing what I know now, I would still
build my own. Perhaps relevantly, I made a curious experiment last year that is
a bit under four feet long with a 2.4" top:
> https://galoototron.com/tag/auxiliary-workbench/
> I put it opposite my main workbench "temporarily," and ended up using it a lot
more than I expected, especially after I made a "bench-on-bench" to go on top. I
was worried that the top wouldn't be thick enough, but that was unfounded.
> 
> This got me thinking that if I'd made a slightly longer version of something
like this for my first workbench, with a bench-on-bench, it might have been...
"better" somehow? Well, I dunno, it's not like I can go back and change it. And
I've had the same manner of space constraints as you until very recently.
> 
> So space constraints actually relate to knockdown benches, and here's my two
cents. A knockdown workbench can be just as sturdy as anything else, but you
cannot skimp on the size of your components or your joinery. Those stretchers
and legs need to be beefy, and tenoning the legs to the top is preferred even if
you don't glue them.


Sorry about my last (mistaken) mailing.

This post got me thinking about reinforcing a weak base. Roy Underhill has a
folding  bench design that I have built (Here is one I found on the net -
https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/133418 ). Because of its light weight it is
skittish, but it doesn’t rack. The under carriage braces may be just what some
of these commercial benches need added to make them more livable.

Here is my version:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../albums/72157671295160514

Bill
274230 galoot@l... 2021‑07‑28 Re: Ramia workbenches
Quoting "Bill Ghio via groups.io" :

> Sorry about my last (mistaken) mailing.
>
> This post got me thinking about reinforcing a weak base. Roy
> Underhill has a folding  bench design that I have built (Here is one
> I found on the net - https://www.lumberjocks.com/projects/133418 ).
> Because of its light weight it is skittish, but it doesn’t rack. The
> under carriage braces may be just what some of these commercial
> benches need added to make them more livable.
>
> Here is my version:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/77280442@N.../albums/72157671295160514
>
> Bill
>
And when you pull the vise you probably have an eating height table
or a counter; part of the workbench as furniture vibe.


Esther
274231 Frank Filippone <bmwred735i@g...> 2021‑07‑28 Re: Ramia workbenches
It is not hard to build a workbench that is durable, stable, and cheap (estimate
is $150 if you have to buy all the lumber.... I used some scraps to cut this
cost) .  It will not take long.  Maybe 2 weekends?

My secondary bench is made from common construction lumber, with a 3 ply
laminated 3/4 Plywood top, 2 1/8 thick. Overall top size is 24x55 inches.

the plywood top is significantly less work than a glued up traditional
vertically laminated top..... it is a compromise in time and long term
functionality, but it gets you going fast.  At 2 1/8 inches thick it is no
slouch.... if you want it thicker, add  a layer.... or two.  It is not expensive
to do this.

It consists of 4x4 legs, notched at the top for a 2x4 "apron" with an additional
notch about 6 inches from the ground for stability, to which I added a shelf and
cabinet drawer free standing drawer box.

The materials list would include

4x4x12'  ( or shorter pieces) for the legs.  ( about $30)

4x  2x4x8"  ( used to cost about $3 each..... probably $23 each these days!)

2 sheets of 3/4 x 4x8 plywood, I used Home Depot Birch ply... which leaves a lot
of scrap from which you make the drawer box.  ( $54 each.)

( I also planned to add a 1/4 inch thick hardboard top for a really smooth and
replaceable top surface,  This has turned out to be a very good decision as I
spilled a bunch of Danish oil on it the first time I used it...!))

Steps in the process:

The very first thing to do is to purchase your vises.  EVERYTHING depends on
their size and mounting methods.

Design it on paper.... your choice of vises will radically alter the size of
your apron structure... mine has overhanging end and side to allow for the vise
and to allow glue ups along the long side of the bench.  My base measures 19x48.
Note that ALL the apron measurements are relative to the outside of the
legs..... and the legs themselves must be square but can be of differing
thicknesses.... only the outside dimensions count.

Cut to rough length all the 4x4 and 2x4.

Then plane one edge of the top apron 2x4's  to be sure straightness....

Plane the middle 2x4's on both edges to be parallel, straight,  and the same
size.

Mark and notch about 3/4 to 1" deep the 4x4 to accept the 2x4's....about  4-6
inches from the foot end.    These must fit quite well for stability.

Notch the 4x4 at t he top end, but only about 3 inches down, to allow the apron
parts to sit above the legs..... You do this to make sure the top has something
flat and planar to be attached to.  Same depth.

All the 2x4 aprons are vertically half lapped in the corners, this eases all the
corner overlap issues.

Assemble with glue, 2 1/2 to 3" screws and dowels as locks.  It will NEVER come
apart....

The top is a 3 piece sandwich of plywood.  I actually used some scraps to make
up the middle core piece.  Glue up on something flat and planar... a kitchen
granite top is just about perfect.  Use weight ( concrete blocks, old boxes of
tools, or other) to supply the clamping pressure.  Roll on the white/yellow glue
using a paint roller... 9",  6",  or whatever you got.....This gets it on fast
and evenly

If you are careful in the assembly, the edges will be pretty flush to each
other.....

Screw down the top to the apron ( from the bottom!) using really long screws or
countersunk holes to allow for shorter screws to be used.  the counter bore is a
better idea. Or you could use a angled hole....

I added 3 construction joist hangers and short 2x4's cut to fit to make sure the
plywood top did not sag anywhere.   If you use a more traditional top, this is
not necessary.

Attach vise(s), drill holes in the top and legs to accommodate your chosen hold
downs, make drawer box to ft using left over plywood.....

Start working on your new bench.....

Frank Filippone

BMWRed735i@G...
274232 Dan Beck <drumsandbacon@g...> 2021‑07‑28 Re: Ramia workbenches
Thank you so much for all the opinions, advice, and info. This is an excellent
group and I’m very glad to benefit from the deep knowledge found here.

I’m going to stick with my original plan which is to build myself a Nicholson
bench. Between the cost of wood and my general lack of time, I was *hoping* the
Ramia bench might give me an easy out. But I think in the long run, building the
Nicholson bench is definitely the better and smarter option.

-- 
I'm a simple man. I like pretty dark-haired women and breakfast food.
274252 scottg <scottg@s...> 2021‑07‑30 Re: Ramia workbenches
I'm with several others here.
  If you only consider it a "starter kit" it can work.

  My buddy Dave bought a Harbor Freight and just added more wood.
   Since most of it doesn't show and is not subject to wear, any old 
used 2X4's will do. Don't need to be pretty.

Legs will show, so you'd have to make something decorative out of it.
Working our defects into features, well you might as well get used to it 
now..... ;) .

Being on the lookout for better vises? Hey if you are a woodworker at 
all you are never past being on the lookout for better vises. 
haahhaaaha  I'd take an Emmert in a heartbeat!!

  The crap vises they come with, well it'll teach you how to make vise 
crutches and such to stop the racking. We never get past that either.


You can always use it as an assembly/paint/etc table when you build your 
real bench later.
  yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html

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