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273571 | Andrew Heybey <ath@h...> | 2021‑05‑04 | flattening a large slab |
We recently redid our kitchen. There is a small island in the kitchen, the top of which is about 3’ x 3’. A friend gave us a large slab of beech to use as the top of the island. The slab is is about 36” by 45” by 3-3.5” (it tapers from one end to the other). It is also bowed by about 1/2” across the narrow dimension. My first shameful thought was to rip it into 3 12” strips and run it through a tailed apprentice to flatten it then glue it back together. But the thought passed and I decided do it the Galoot way both for the experience and for the satisfaction of the top still being a single piece. The challenges are several (at least for me): - I have never done any stock prep by hand (I have mostly stuck to joinery and finish work with hand tools). I know how to do it in theory, but have zero experience. - I have to both flatten the faces and make them (more-or-less) parallel. All the “flatten your bench top” videos I watched don’t have to deal with this. - I need to remove a lot of wood. The bow is about 1/2” so to flatten it I have to remove a total of 1” (1/2 from the top face and 1/2 from the bottom). In addition, it tapers by 1/2" from end to end, so that’s another big chunk I have to remove from the whole width. I have turned my crappy Stanley “Handyman” #4 into a scrub plane by grinding the iron in an arc, https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263744/3219531, and started in (obviously just barely): https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263744/3219532 and https://groups.io/g/oldtools/photo/263744/3219533 Ignore the unspeakable object in the background (it doesn’t belong to me, really!) My current plan is to: a) more-or-less flatten the convex face with the scrub plane b) flip it over and do the same to the concace face. c) mark the desired thickness and plane it to thickness. Any words of advice? The thought occurs to me that even doing it by hand perhaps I should rip it into 2-3 strips so that I can alternate the grain when I glue it back together. On the other hand, it is kind-of quarter sawn because the slab went through the middle of the tree. Finally, the front knob is missing from my #4 (it currently borrowing one from my “good” #4). Anyone have a knob they would like to sell? thanks, andrew |
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273572 | Curt Seeliger <seeligerc@g...> | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
Andrew asks: > A friend gave us a large slab of beech to use as the top of the island. The slab is is about > 36” by 45” by 3-3.5” (it tapers from one end to the other). It is also bowed by about 1/2” > across the narrow dimension. ... Any words of advice? Good evening, Andrew, That's a lot of wasting to be doing with a plane. You might consider a hewing axe/hatchet. This has been covered by Prof. Follansbee, and an excellent reason to buy another tool if you don't already have a collection of these. https://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2021/04/25/sharpening-a-hewing-hatchet/ should get you started |
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273573 | Chuck Taylor | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
Andrew, You wrote: =========== A friend gave us a large slab of beech to use as the top of the island. The slab is is about 36” by 45” by 3-3.5” (it tapers from one end to the other). It is also bowed by about 1/2” across the narrow dimension. ... - I need to remove a lot of wood. The bow is about 1/2” so to flatten it I have to remove a total of 1” (1/2 from the top face and 1/2 from the bottom). In addition, it tapers by 1/2" from end to end, so that’s another big chunk I have to remove from the whole width. .... Any words of advice? The thought occurs to me that even doing it by hand perhaps I should rip it into 2-3 strips so that I can alternate the grain when I glue it back together. On the other hand, it is kind-of quarter sawn because the slab went through the middle of the tree. ... ============== I would recommend ripping it in half lengthwise through the pith (or close to it), and flatten each half separately. That would cut the amount of wood to remove essentially in half. Then glue the two halves back together. Don't forget the winding sticks! Cheers, Chuck Taylor north of Seattle USA |
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273574 | Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
On Tue, 4 May 2021 at 14:59, Chuck Taylor via groups.io |
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273718 | Mark Wells <mark.w@m...> | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
(Popping up after years of absence.) Andrew, I flatten my stock by hand, but this looks pretty extreme to me. Christopher Schwarz seems to think it is easy to flatten a workbench as a newbie, but that was not my experience. I tried to flatten a workbench that was pretty flat to begin with as my first exercise in flattening and I ended up removing too much material in the wrong place and significantly tapered the thickness of the top. I was under the delusion that if the plane is cutting, it must be removing a high spot. If you are going to flatten by hand, don't start with this board. Start with a section of 2x6 and then try a section of 2x12 from the Borg. Yellow pine is great for that if it is available. Use something soft without knots. It's easier to start with the concave side up. A long plane will ride over a hill, cutting the entire way. However, a long plane won't cut a valley. So if the concave side is up, you can use that to your advantage to remove as little wood as possible. Ripping it in half will help a lot. It would also let you make sure the pith is removed and will preserve more overall thickness. I have not used an adze or hatchet, so I can't comment on that, but Roy Underhill seems to do that mostly with green wood. This slab looks pretty dry. In the olden days you would get wood from a sawmill powered by water because reasonable people would not make boards by hand. In this case it seems reasonable to apply the same concept, especially since you need the two sides parallel. My local hardwood lumberyard will flatten slabs for a very reasonable price. If I were in your shoes, I would seriously consider that. To me this is the kind of exercise that newbies try by hand and then conclude that hand tools are useless. There's no reason to get discouraged early on. Mark |
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273575 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
+1 on Chuck. I might even take a total of an inch out of the middle to get rid of that pesky area that wants to be unstable. Ed Minch |
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273579 | Kirk Eppler | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 7:41 PM Andrew Heybey |
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273583 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
First thought is to consider how stable it will remain. Do you need to add some sort of battens, or dovetail some supports in to the base to keep it flat after you’ve worked on it? Next thought - Old time folk wouldn’t necessarily flatten the underside. If it is to rest on bearers across the top of the unit - then just provide trenches / rebates where the bearers run, and leave the excess timber in place. That gets us to the top. Now - the reason for using a slab must be that you want the single piece look. Ass soon as you rip it to reglue, then you lose that, so I can see why you would want to flatten it. The attraction of a large slab, in one piece, is not to be given up lightly - that slab of walnut we just looked at? - criminal to cut that up. even if you reglue it together afterward. So we need it to remain stable, otherwise we’d just rip it and reglue. but it decided to cup whilst drying. Will it do so again? What’s its moisture content now? can you leave it in the kitchen to acclimatise for a year? a month? couple of months? Will you be doing this every 6 months? Is it going to split as it dries further? How do you minimise the chances of splitting? More questions than answers here - sorry. Apart from ‘don’t bother with the underside’ - even to the extent of running a rebate around it and fixing a skirt to hide the gaps… Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot. where the sun has decided to shine now I’m indoors after it’s done ’sprinkling’ on me > On 4 May 2021, at 03:41, Andrew Heybey |
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273586 | scottg <scottg@s...> | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
Richard is absolutely right of course. Flattening both sides is a machine approach. You can shim up / relieve the bottom easy enough. There is no bonus at all for a finished bottom. If you are doing it by hand let it look a little like it was done by hand. There is no bonus in copying K-Mart with hand tools. A Handyman #4 will do if you have to. A more solid jack plane with a goodly camber on the razor sharp iron will hog more chips faster though. Use your winding sticks to see where its the worst. Go diagonal or even straight across to start. No time to squinge along and look at shavings etc. Dig in with a will and hog some thick chips fast! When you get closer its time to slow down and use a longer plane. yours scott -- ******************************* Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 scottg@s... http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html |
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273587 | Thomas Conroy | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
Andrew Heybey wrote: "We recently redid our kitchen. There is a small island in the kitchen, the top of which is about 3’ x 3’. A friend gave us a large slab of beech to use as the top of the island. The slab is is about 36” by 45” by 3-3.5” (it tapers from one end to the other). It is also bowed by about 1/2” across the narrow dimension..... "- I need to remove a lot of wood. The bow is about 1/2” so to flatten it I have to remove a total of 1” (1/2 from the top face and 1/2 from the bottom). In addition, it tapers by 1/2" from end to end, so that’s another big chunk I have to remove from the whole width..... "Any words of advice? The thought occurs to me that even doing it by hand perhaps I should rip it into 2-3 strips so that I can alternate the grain when I glue it back together. On the other hand, it is kind-of quarter sawn because the slab went through the middle of the tree. "Finally, the front knob is missing from my #4 (it currently borrowing one from my “good” #4). Anyone have a knob they would like to sell?" Hi, Andrew, How long is it since the slab was milled? Getting satisfactory results from beech is dependent on its having enough time to settle down and stop warping. I have anecdotal evidence that the traditional one year per inch is not sufficient; probably two years per inch thickness is more like it. This is not a matter of moisture content; it is more likely the slow release of growing stresses. And kiln drying is no good at all. You have to put it in a corner and wait for it, maybe for years. You don't want to put a lot of work into flattening and thicknessing the slab, by any method, only to have it curl like a potato chip after you have cocmpleted it. My instinct is that slicing it into narrow strips and regluing it won't helep either. You just have to wait for time. As for the front knob of your plane: Rosewood seems a mite like over-egging the pudding for a beater #4 reprposed into a scrub. Just use anything you have around. I had a plane where the last 2" of a leather-capped chisel handle had dbeen cut off and used as a front knob. I've seen a golf ball used. I don't think that I am making up the plane with a tonka-toy truck drilled and screwed into place---though I can' remember where I came across that one. Or a chunk of "prime first growth winter hardened range fed american hardwood," like the late John Lederer's file handles. After all, it's just a tool (ducking and running fast.) Tom Conroy |
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273588 | Darrell <larchmont479@g...> | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
Andrew asks about flattening and thinning down a big slab of beech... On Mon, 3 May 2021 at 22:41, Andrew Heybey |
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273589 | Spike <spikethebike@c...> | 2021‑05‑04 | Re: flattening a large slab |
Speaking of the stability of dried stock, I have just been turning a bowl out of some curly maple that I have had for over 22 years, stored in my basement shop, now in my “woodwrights” shop. After turning the outer profile and reversing it to start the interior, it moved like it was green, as the internal stresses got to work. I hope the slab in question doesn’t have figure! Best, Spike P.S., I have recently discovered how much better a number 40 (dedicated scrubber) works for hogging off material as opposed to a “scrubbed” (cambered) smoother! Sent from the seat of my pants |
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273590 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑05‑05 | Re: flattening a large slab |
> On May 4, 2021, at 7:55 PM, Spike |
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273592 | Andrew Heybey <ath@h...> | 2021‑05‑05 | Re: flattening a large slab |
I am overwhelmed by the many thoughtful and helpful responses. I will try to respond in groups more-or-less by topic. This is the “tools” topic. > On May 3, 2021, at 10:57 PM, curt seeliger |
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273593 | Andrew Heybey <ath@h...> | 2021‑05‑05 | Re: flattening a large slab |
The “techniques” topic. Tomorrow will be the “wood” topic :-). Thanks again to everyone. > On May 4, 2021, at 9:19 AM, Kirk Eppler via groups.io |
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273595 | Adam R. Maxwell | 2021‑05‑05 | Re: flattening a large slab |
> On May 4, 2021, at 20:27 , Andrew Heybey |
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273597 | Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> | 2021‑05‑05 | Re: Scrub planes (was Re: flattening a large slab) |
It’s pretty much personal taste. I have an NIB Stanley 40 with the factory radius on it, and it is much more than you might think - at lest in Stanley’s opnion. I have kept my user 40 at about the same radius and it take chips that look like a large Frito - very satifying in how fast things happen Ed Minch |
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273596 | John M. Johnston <jmjhnstn@m...> | 2021‑05‑05 | Re: flattening a large slab |
Andrew, For $129 you can get a Lee Valley a scrub plane; a much better tool than the Stanley. Cheers, John Johnston John M. Johnston “P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried; therefore I beg you to write and let me know.” - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P. ________________________________ From: oldtools@g... |
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273598 | Mark van Roojen <mvr1@e...> | 2021‑05‑05 | Re: flattening a large slab |
Andrew wrote: Good point, I have plenty of scraps I could make a knob out of. But I was under the impression that the screw is some weird thread? Maybe I should instead ask if anyone has a front knob screw? Am I wrong about that? If you are worried about getting a screw for the front know I think I can find you one. I would need your address, but I believe I have a small stock of screws and nuts for front knobs. - Mark |
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273600 | Andrew Heybey <ath@h...> | 2021‑05‑05 | Re: Scrub planes (was Re: flattening a large slab) |
On May 5, 2021, at 12:01 AM, Ken Wright via groups.io |
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273601 | John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> | 2021‑05‑05 | Re: flattening a large slab |
Mark, Before they went Metric, Stanley used an obscure thread for their knob & tote Screws. It approximates a #12-20, but the thread profile is NOT of the National Standard (NS) form; it's a rounded profile made by rolling. A #12-20 NS tap & die can be obtained from Victor Machinery. It's not a perfect fit, but it's functional. Reproduction parts for old Stanley tools can be obtained from the St. James Bay Tool Co. of Arizona. They also sell the taps & dies, though I don't know what the thread form is. ( I'm inclined to think they are likely the correct Stanley form, as St. James Bay makes good stuff. ) John Ruth Whose green Handyman #4 has proven to be a very good plane after some fettling. |
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273602 | Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> | 2021‑05‑05 | Re: Scrub planes (was Re: flattening a large slab) |
My scrub plane is the first wooden plane I ever made. It has a regular escapement, and is quite narrow. It wasn’t quite finished when I found I needed to work some very rough, very green timber. So I found a blade - something like a No12 from a moulder, sharpened it, and glued in a rought tote I had intended to finish. Made up a knob and glued that in, and set to. It worked wonderfully. All the agonising and blether I had read (here, sometimes) meant nothing. It has stayed as a scrub plane ever since. Most recently it did duty on some part dried beech which a fellow green woodworker needed flat (actually he’s a ranger at an urban park/reserve down near the Tyne, and is only beginning a journey into spokeshaves, bench planes, and real joints after a life of farm gate hinge setting, stiles, thinning, felling, and so forth) It can dig out a near 1/8 divot at a time - narrow, but deep. A few strokes and the job is done. Because it is narrow, the ‘lands’ on each side of the mouth form a natural depth stop if you were to run it over the same place twice. If forces you to alter your angle and line on each stroke. All of that to say - think laterally if you are altering a No4. First off - you need a wide mouth. No, wider than that. Second, don’t aim to camber the entire width of the blade. Grind back 5/8 at each side, and make a deep curved cutting edge in the centre. - like a mouth with only the two centre teeth in place. Here - I’ll take photos.. I’m not going to make ascii art work for this. Right. photos going up now. I see the blade is clearly marked, and I’ve set it for a green wood job. plenty of depth, but not much width, so you can really clear timber going cross grain. I also find that I’d got that Tote ready for install on a bench plane - drilled for the rod and footscrew and all. I could just use that right now for a restore I’m busy with. Richard Wilson Yorkshireman Galoot. Pics in my album here in groups.io > On 5 May 2021, at 14:01, Andrew Heybey |
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