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273354 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2021‑04‑06 Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Gentle Galoots, 

Please help me design a box or case for a large oilstone that I inherited from
my father.  I believe it was previously owned by his father, who passes
literally decades before I was born.  I want to make s box with a hinged lid.  A
major goal is to preserve the stone for the next generation.

The stone is 14" long by 3-7/8" wide by 2-3/8" high at the ends.  ( The center
is dished by a considerable amount, perhaps 1/2" Flattening is not yet on the
agenda.)

It was formerly in a crude wooden half-box formed by nailing sides and ends onto
a board.  The good feature was that excess oil could ooze out between the bottom
and the sides, though eventually the whole thing was crumbly due to using
excessive miscellaneous oils over its many years.

I have some used 3/4" "real" mahogany boards about 3-1/2" wide and 7 feet long.
I also have a used 4-quarter old-growth southern longleaf yellow pine plank
which is larger than the stone.  These should clean up nicely with some
scraping.

Current thinking is to make the long sides of the mahogany with dovetails along
the bottom edge.

The questions are:

What should the ends of the lower half of the box look like, in terms of design
for likely wood movement?

Should the bottom of the box extend out beyond the ends? ( I can't see a need to
clamp a stone this large to the bench, but would like to hear if others find
this useful. )

What should the lid be like, other than I have a suitable brass piano hinge? 

Should I just hollow out a big chunk of oak as a one-piece base, and call it at
that? ( I have a suitable  oak log. )

How have other Galoots approached the design of boxes for large whetstones?

Thanks in advance,
John Ruth
273355 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
John has some tricky design issues to work through...

> On 6 Apr 2021, at 09:03, John Ruth  wrote:
> 
> Please help me design a box or case for a large oilstone that I inherited from
my father.  I believe it was previously owned by his father, who passes
literally decades before I was born.  I want to make s box with a hinged lid.  A
major goal is to preserve the stone for the next generation.
> 
> The stone is 14" long by 3-7/8" wide by 2-3/8" high at the ends.  ( The center
is dished by a considerable amount, perhaps 1/2" Flattening is not yet on the
agenda.)
> 
> It was formerly in a crude wooden half-box formed by nailing sides and ends
onto a board.  The good feature was that excess oil could ooze out between the
bottom and the sides, though eventually the whole thing was crumbly due to using
excessive miscellaneous oils over its many years.


Given its provenance, I’d be starting by resolving to myself the degree to which
I want to preserve the ‘heritage’ of a well used, crudely made artefact that has
a place in my family history, versus
produce a stunning stone box, versus
produce a stone box of great practicality, versus
produce a show piece that lives indoors as an heirloom item


If I was trying to ‘preserve’ it, then I may just rebuild the format of the
nailed together box.  Does it need you to find some cut nails?   After nailing
something together, in the style and with the accuracy of the original, I should
do some suitable ‘ageing’


However, If I wanted something better, I’d make up the mahogany, careful to use
end grain for the ends as if it came from a single chunk (To maintain integrity
should it do any shrinking or expanding.  I strugle with the idea of a hinged
lid, as you so often need the stone to be raised and your knuckles to be lower
than the surface on either side.  After well varnishing, the traditional method
would be to putty it into the box, though you may wish to use wooden wedges at
either end instead.  Maybe a subtle moulding at the join of top and bottom, and
a wide bevel on the top, and it would be enough.


Same question about flattening.   I’m pretty convinced that you have other
stones for actual working sharpening, so do you want to remove its history and
flatten it, or maybe just clean it up and look at the way it has been used for
generations and hollowed by generations of your family.  It’s perfectly possible
to use a hollowed stone - and this is evidence - why not try it?  use it to
sharpen a few things and use them.  Experience the acquisition of the skill to
move with the hollow and still get a sharp edge.   We are much more picky these
days - absolutely flat stones - micro bevels - accuracy to thousandths - but it
wasn’t always so, and empires were buiilt with hollow stones and tools that were
just sharp enough.


That’s my take - worth exactly what you paid for it… 


Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot




-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
273356 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
> On Apr 6, 2021, at 4:03 AM, John Ruth  wrote:
> 
> How have other Galoots approached the design of boxes for large whetstones?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> John Ruth

Here is what a galoot did 200 years ago.  He used an auger to remove wood down
to depth then chiseled for a final fit on both the box and the lid.  And he used
2 small hinges.  This is not a sharpening stone, more like a sharpening rock

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/40068839084/in/album-72157652309439462/

Ed Minch
273357 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
> On Apr 6, 2021, at 4:50 AM, Richard Wilson  wrote:
> 
> We are much more picky these days - absolutely flat stones - micro bevels -
accuracy to thousandths - but it wasn’t always so, and empires were buiilt with
hollow stones and tools that were just sharp enough.


Well said Richard - think of all the bench planes that have undergone sole
flatenning when the last guy made a lviing with them as they were

Ed Minch
273358 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Ed

Wow, I have the cousin! I have similar stone in the bottom half of a box. Stone
doesn’t have a parallel, straight, or perpendicular line to it. Face is of
course dished.

Never used it. I went across to the dark side years ago (diamond stones).

Mick Dowling
,
273359 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Ed, Richard

Did you guys start this thread to drag me out into the open!

I’ve written and said this so many times over the years that if you were to go
into the archives you might be able to find the next few sentences already
posted by me in a previous rant.

I have never cracked open a long dead tradesmans tool box, shoved a hand in,
ouch, dragged out a bloody partially severed finger, and thought ‘man that old
bloke kept his stuff sharp’.

Chisels, plane blades, rounded over and in need of serious remedial grinding. 

Saws! Uneven teeth, uneven set. If you could ask one of these long dead
oldtimers ‘how’s your fleam working’, you’d probably get a smack across the
chops.

But they pumped out incredible work.

That’s enough. Need a rest now. Seeing stars, that’s not good.

Mick Dowling
Melbourne Australia
273360 Richard Wilson <yorkshireman@y...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
It’s been a long held view here.   Amongst all the angst at a sharp length being
too many angstroms in thickness there is a wide thread of reality needed.  Some
people enjoy producing that edge that has the sharpness of obsydian, and they
obsess and spend mighty dollars (unit of foreign currency,. Jeff) in pursuit of
the means of obtaining a marvellous edge.

Others get on with turning out product.  When feeding your family depended on
product, you understood about how sharp an edge *needed* to be.


Certainly, I have some bits of kit that will get me a stupid sharp edge, and I
have enough (definitely not an excess) planes and edge tools that i can reserve
some to be tuned to near death and reserved for the gnarliest grain.

But most of the time, I work with edges that are not totally sharp, reach for a
stone, grab out he blade, give it a few swipes, wipe off with a shaving, and
back to work.  Now and again I may declare a grinding day, and pull out the
usual suspects, re-grind the bevels back, and continue,

The thing about the galoot mentality is that you need very very few tools, and
bucketloads of skill.  Everything we have is just 'sharp on a stick’  - but it’s
knowing how to hold and manipulate that sharp which gets results, and allows
recovery from awkward material or even (shudder) a mistake.


And most important, it’s the sum of being able to understand the material and
the sharp that gives such enormous pleasure and satisfaction at the completion
fo anything - be it ever so humble.


Richard Wilson
Yorkshireman Galoot
in Spring, where it’s April, and snowing.




> On 6 Apr 2021, at 11:22, Mick Dowling  wrote:
> 
> Ed, Richard
> 
> Did you guys start this thread to drag me out into the open!
> 
> I’ve written and said this so many times over the years that if you were to go
into the archives you might be able to find the next few sentences already
posted by me in a previous rant.
> 
> I have never cracked open a long dead tradesmans tool box, shoved a hand in,
ouch, dragged out a bloody partially severed finger, and thought ‘man that old
bloke kept his stuff sharp’.
> 
> Chisels, plane blades, rounded over and in need of serious remedial grinding. 
> 
> Saws! Uneven teeth, uneven set. If you could ask one of these long dead
oldtimers ‘how’s your fleam working’, you’d probably get a smack across the
chops.
> 
> But they pumped out incredible work.
> 
> That’s enough. Need a rest now. Seeing stars, that’s not good.
> 
> Mick Dowling
> Melbourne Australia
> 
> 
>> On 6 Apr 2021, at 7:59 pm, Ed Minch  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 6, 2021, at 4:50 AM, Richard Wilson  wrote:
>>> 
>>> We are much more picky these days - absolutely flat stones - micro bevels -
accuracy to thousandths - but it wasn’t always so, and empires were buiilt with
hollow stones and tools that were just sharp enough.
>> 
>> 
>> Well said Richard - think of all the bench planes that have undergone sole
flatenning when the last guy made a lviing with them as they were
>> 
>> Ed Minch
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-- 
Yorkshireman Galoot
in the most northerly county, farther north even than Yorkshire
IT #300
273361 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
This should go in the archives as a statement of the Galoot Ethos

Well said

Ed Minch
273362 Kevin Foley <kevin.m.foley@c...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Sharpening seems to be a black hole that few discussions of any length about
planes can avoid.  The event horizon is where the focus shifts to shavings and
is no longer on the wood.  Beyond that I fear there are microscopes.

Kevin
273363 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Action starts at 2:20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs9X-XzFGHI

Ed Minch
273364 Don Schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
On 2021-04-06 2:50 a.m., Richard Wilson wrote:
>   I strugle with the idea of a hinged lid, as you so often need the stone to
be raised and your knuckles to be lower than the surface on either side.

I have seen at least one old box with hinges on one end. That may not be 
practical for such a large stone if you plan to use it, but it's an option.

FWIW

Don
273365 Kirk Eppler 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
I would agree that a hinged end lid would probably work better than a side
hinged.  And don't forget the clearance issues to allow the lid to clear
the stone sitting up to be usable.

I've bought several stones with boxes, and almost all the vintage ones
appear to have been augered first.  One was nicely finished, and I can't
tell what was done first.

My one modern box is a nail together.

Kirk in HMB, who degreased a few tools this morning before my shower
273366 Rick B <rickburger68@g...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
You might want to glue a piece of stropping leather to the top. 
I have a couple of boxes for oil stones, neither is hinged.

Rick B from the Midwest
273367 gtgrouch@r... 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
All my oilstone boxes have a removable top which nestles over the
stone. In most, the stone is loose enough to remove but stable enough
to leave in the bottom to sharpen with. 

I have two which are highly prized: one is a boxed coarse/medium stone
with a box made by my father, and the other is a loose stone, picked
up in Charnley Forest (I don't know if I spelled that right) by our
own Jeff Gorman, who kept it on his desk for years to sharpen pen
knives.

Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA 

	-----------------------------------------From: "Rick B" 
To: oldtools@g...
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday April 6 2021 2:35:30PM
Subject: Re: [oldtools] Box or Case for Large Oilstone

 You might want to glue a piece of stropping leather to the top.
 I have a couple of boxes for oil stones, neither is hinged.

 Rick B from the Midwest

 



Links:
------
[1] https://groups.io/g/oldtools/unsub
273368 scottg <scottg@s...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Here's my take on the subject.
   I like clearance for mine so I can flatten the backs and not have 
knuckle dragging trouble.
The bevel counts but its really all about the back.

  I like to clamp it securely in a vise so I can put some pressure on 
and not have to chase it around.

   So I make my boxes with a thick bottom. A 2X4 is enough.
The sides come up only about 1/4" . Just enough to trap the stone.

   Lid is optional, but it keeps the dirt off.
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/stonebox4.jpg
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/stonebox7.jpg
http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/hometools/stonebox8.jpg

Oh and dished stones? I just pick a spot of relative flat cement and 
plop on down with a glass of water.
Last time it was my back porch step. There was a small area of slight 
roughness. (the cement finisher was not that bad, but still left a bit 
to be desired lol)
  In about 10 minutes I got a flat stone and slightly smoother cement.
  http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/auction/step.jpg
yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
273369 Ken Wright 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
On Tue, 2021-04-06 at 12:16 -0700, scottg wrote:
> 
> The bevel counts but its really all about the back.
> 
All about that back, 'bout that back, 'bout that back, no bevels!

(g,d,r)

Ken
273370 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
GG's,

"Hogging" a whetstone case out of a chunk of Oak did occur to me.  However, I
have not one but two _other_ old monolithic stone boxes with an end grain piece
split out and MIA.  I surmise the absorption of oil greatly reduces the
resistance to splitting along the grain.

You've helped me to discard the piano hinge concept.  It will either be a lift-
off lid or have a hinge on one end.  Alternately, perhaps a pair of those
"pintle and gudgeon" hinges to allow the lid to be easily detached.

Will definitely get the beading plane into the act!

Ed-

The circles with the small center dots look like they were made with a Forstner
bit.

Somewhere, I have a set of NOS Forstner bits with bitstock heads to fit a
carpenter's brace. They were made in Connecticut.

When was the Forstner bit developed? That might give you a data point for the
earliest possible date for that box.

The stone, of course, was made in the year "1" by Almighty God & Co.

John Ruth
Ducking and Running!
P.S. Let's just say that the art of the drive-by gloat is still very much alive
in Albion, NY.
273371 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Oh, RATS! I've done it again.
Ed, please ignore my erroneous statement that the circles with the small center
dimple look like Forstner marks!!!  Obviously, they were made by a Center Bit
circa 1817.
John Ruth
On Apr 6, 2021, at 6:05 AM, Ed Minch mailto:edminch3@g...>>
wrote:



On Apr 6, 2021, at 4:03 AM, John Ruth mailto:johnrruth@h...>>
wrote:

How have other Galoots approached the design of boxes for large whetstones?

Thanks in advance,
John Ruth

Here is what a galoot did 200 years ago.  He used an auger to remove wood down
to depth then chiseled for a final fit on both the box and the lid.  And he used
2 small hinges.  This is not a sharpening stone, more like a sharpening rock

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/40068839084/in/album-72157652309439462/

Ed Minch
273373 Ed Minch <edminch3@g...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
> On Apr 6, 2021, at 4:25 PM, John Ruth  wrote:
> 
> Oh, RATS! I've done it again.
> Ed, please ignore my erroneous statement that the circles with the small
center dimple look like Forstner marks!!!  Obviously, they were made by a Center
Bit circa 1817.
> John Ruth
>

That was my thjought, but I have to say you had me going there.  Another thought
is that over such a long time, how could the hinges have not broken off where
the lid lays back?

Ed Minch
273372 Tony Seo 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Here are a few of the cased stones that I have sold over the years., 
just for ideas

This one was a recent find.

http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0201a.jpg
http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0201b.jpg
http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0201c.jpg
http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0201d.jpg

This is a neat razor hone with a hinged lid.

http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0302a.jpg
http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0302b.jpg
http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0302c.jpg

This one had brass hinges and a latch along with a leather hone glued on top

http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0501.jpg

Another razor hone with single piece top and base.

http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0901.jpg

There have been more but I hope that this gives some ideas.

Tony (where the weather has been nice and hoping for a good flea run 
tomorrow..)

-- 
Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic
Old River Hard Goods
http://oldetoolshop.com/
273374 Kirk Eppler 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 1:41 PM Tony Seo via groups.io  wrote:

>
> Here are a few of the cased stones that I have sold over the years., just
> for ideas
>
> This is a neat razor hone with a hinged lid.
>
> http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0302a.jpg
> http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0302b.jpg
> http://oldetoolshop.com/toolpics/sharpeningstone0302c.jpg
>
>
Dang. I like that one.  Pictures noted to the future project file.  Imagine
how cool that would look with a brass outside hinge, for something other
than a stone, like short measuring stick storage.

Thanks for sharing Tony.
-- 
Kirk Eppler in Half Moon Bay, done with video meetings for the day.
273376 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Ed wrote: "The circles with the small center dots look like they were
made with a Forstner bit." 

I don't think so.  Those, in my opinion, came from a center-bit.  I've
seen a number of oldsters like these, and center-bits were the go to of
the day.  The oldest I've seen is not a stone box, but a photo of the
excavation for a patch box in the surviving 1803 rifle from the Lewis
and Clark expedition.  

When I was actively researching tools and practices of carpentry for
Sutter's Fort back in the '80s (had to document every tool I brought
there to no later than 1845) I looked at a number of boxed stones for
that period.  Most were not hinged, and the bottom and tops were both
excavated so they could be used just like Sott recommends.  Many were
strictly utilitarian, but a number were fancier; their tops appeared to
have been made out of sections of wide stair rail.  Provides an easy
handle for lifting the top.  Those that were hinged were hinged like
Scott's lovely examples. 

Mike in Woodland
273377 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Lovely examples, Tony! 

Mike in Woodland
273378 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2021‑04‑06 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
I once dealt with a fine carpenter from Scotland -- '86 or '87.  One of
the things he told me was that to pass his apprenticeship he was
required to sharpen and tune a wooden smoothing plane to the point where
he could lift a single shaving from a 20 foot long board that was so
thin you could see through it.  

On the other hand, from April of 1985 to April of '86, I worked with
about 30 carpenters, cabinet makers, and shipwrights from Viet-Nam. 
Some of them were near magical.  Carpenters and cabinet makers preferred
iron-bark wood for their planes (all of them made their own).  The
shipwrights used oak exclusively; it didn't last as long, but wasn't
resinous.  The intensity of their way of working would bring the resins
out of the iron-bark.  When too worn, the shipwrights threw them out and
made new ones.  All three preferred water stones, and since they
sharpened every tool they had used that day, some before leaving, some
first thing the next morning, the stones quickly dished. When too
dished, they turned the stones over and worked them until they broke in
half.  

This is how working carpenters did the deed.  No attention to
transparent shavings or making microscopic edges.  I'm pretty sure that
Duncan Phyfe worked much the same way.  Not here to make shavings, here
to make things to make their living. 

Mike in Woodland
273381 Chuck Taylor 2021‑04‑07 Re: Box or Case for Large Oilstone
Gentle Galoots,

I made an excavated box for a translucent Arkansas stone. Nothing fancy, no
hinges. I used a center bit (centre bit, Jeff) for the initial excavation and a
router plane for leveling the bottom to final depth. This is a perfect
application for a router plane.

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle

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