OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

272926 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@g...> 2021‑03‑05 Future of the List
GG's,

I've been maintaining the OldTools List on my server since 2015 when I took
over from Cornell Law School, who had been hosting it. The time has come
for me to step down and turn the List over to someone else. That could be
another member who has experience with mailing list software, or a
commercial service. After doing this for six years, I recommend a
commercial service.

Thoughts, volunteers?

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
https://swingley.org/
272928 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2021‑03‑05 Re: Future of the List
Chris

I am not capable of doing the innerwebs thing, but I really appreciate you for
taking this on for as long as you have.

Ed Minch
272932 Peter Marquis-Kyle <peter@m...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
On 6/03/2021 1:26 am, Christopher Swingley wrote:
> I've been maintaining the OldTools List on my server since 2015 when I took
> over from Cornell Law School, who had been hosting it. The time has come
> for me to step down and turn the List over to someone else. That could be
> another member who has experience with mailing list software, or a
> commercial service. After doing this for six years, I recommend a
> commercial service.

Thank you Chris for all you have done for those six years. As a regular 
reader (and occasional writer) I have enjoyed the conversations here, 
and appreciate the way this mailing list has supported our good-humoured 
intercourse. Your setting up and hosting of the list, along with its 
searchable archive, and all the work to administer it, are hidden 
contributions we all benefit from.

Some other lists I belong to have recently transferred to the groups.io 
commercial service, which seems to work well. I'd be happy to throw a 
few dollars into the collection plate to make the transition to a paid 
service, if nobody offers to do what Chris has done.

(And, in case anyone suggests changing over to some kind of web forum 
instead of the mailing list format, let me say I would prefer not to do 
that.)

-- 

Peter Marquis-Kyle
www.marquis-kyle.com.au
272934 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 at 04:26, Christopher Swingley  wrote:
>
> GG's,
>
> I've been maintaining the OldTools List on my server since 2015 when I took
> over from Cornell Law School, who had been hosting it. The time has come
> for me to step down and turn the List over to someone else. That could be
> another member who has experience with mailing list software, or a
> commercial service. After doing this for six years, I recommend a
> commercial service.
>
> Thoughts, volunteers?

I don't mind to look at options.
I guess you want to keep the domain name?
What about the archive, and the static pages?

Chris
272935 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@g...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
Peter,

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:11 PM Peter Marquis-Kyle 
wrote:

> Some other lists I belong to have recently transferred to the groups.io
> commercial service, which seems to work well. I'd be happy to throw a
> few dollars into the collection plate to make the transition to a paid
> service, if nobody offers to do what Chris has done.


Thanks. Agree about groups.io. At least one of the old listserv lists I
belong to has switched to that service as well. It wouldn't be cheap,
though. We've got around 1,100 subscribers (probably 20-30% have been
bounced out), which would wind up being around $40/month.

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
https://swingley.org/
272936 Tony Blanks <dynnyrne@i...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
On 6/03/2021 2:08 pm, Christopher Swingley wrote in part

(snip)

> Thanks. Agree about groups.io. At least one of the old listserv lists I
> belong to has switched to that service as well. It wouldn't be cheap,
> though. We've got around 1,100 subscribers (probably 20-30% have been
> bounced out), which would wind up being around $40/month.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris
First of all, my sincere thanks to you Chris for keeping the list 
operating.  I have learned a great deal from people I met here

As for the cost of moving to groups.io, well, if only a quarter of our 
subscribers contributed that would be around two US dollars a year per 
contributor.  Not a great deal compared to a magazine subscription for 
access to the knowledge and humour of the active participants.

I'd be happy to pay that,  albeit coming from Aus the currency 
conversion cost would be more than the sub.  I'd probably just pay 10 
years in advance so that I didn't need to remember to do it every year!

But I'm afraid I know nothing about list server software nor 
maintenance, nor groups.io,  so I'm afraid Chris that I can't help with 
the practical end of things.

Just my 2 cents' worth.  But, Thanks again,

Tony B
Hobart, Tasmania
272937 "Joseph Holsten" <joseph@j...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
I’ve been a system administrator since the 1990s, and groups.io sounds a lot
more fun than maintaining mailman, its website, mail services, backups, etc.

I’ve also seen a few mailing lists switch to https://discourse.org/">https://discourse.org/ and I quite enjoy it.
The main advantage is people who like mailing groups can access it through
email, but folks who prefer forums need never leave their browser (or mobile
app). Archives import is available: https://meta.discourse.org/t
/migrating-to-discourse-from-another-forum-
software/16616">https://meta.discourse.org/t/migrating-to-discourse-from-
another-forum-software/16616

If that’s interesting to anyone, I would be interested in hosting discourse.
I’ve done the community leadership thing in the past so I’d also get our
infrastructure set up so we could easily hand it off if I get hit by a bus.

Either way, we should probably set up something like https://opencollective.com/">https://opencollective.com/ to allow
members to easily donate and have the operator use that money for expenses.

--
Joseph Holsten
http://josephholsten.com
mailto:joseph@j...
tel:+1-360-927-7234
272938 "Joseph Holsten" <joseph@j...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
Oh and I don’t know about you, but I’ve wanted a galoots wiki for ages,
especially to host tool identification guides, old catalogs, etc. If we host
one, we should host the other, or neither.

--
Joseph Holsten
http://josephholsten.com
mailto:joseph@j...
tel:+1-360-927-7234
272939 Bob Page 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
Joseph,

Mark Stansbury has already taken on the task of collecting together nearly 5500
tool catalogs and other publications into a searchable archive. In fact, he has
done such a great job that it was one of the reasons stated by the Mid-West Tool
Collectors Association for ending their costly annual reprint program.

https://archive.org/details/internationaltoolcataloglibrary

Bob Page
In da U.P. of Michigan



On Saturday, March 6, 2021, 03:05:15 AM EST, Joseph Holsten  wrote:

Oh and I don’t know about you, but I’ve wanted a galoots wiki for ages,
especially to host tool identification guides, old catalogs, etc. If we host
one, we should host the other, or neither.
272941 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
Well here we go again.
   A long standing casual gathering of good natured people sharing their 
lives.
Caring about each other, helping each other. We've been through an awful 
lot.

   And somewhere, lost in an archive nobody ever reads, is part of my 
life's work.
Learning struggling accomplishing sharing and teaching. Trying to 
encourage all of us to go out on a limb and tackle the seemingly 
impossible. Always on the lookout for new talent wherever it appears, 
and nourishing it however I can.
Watching the long view and trying to steer it toward good.
Forever fighting to blunt the forces of greed.

One day, maybe soon, the button will be pushed and blink,
  gone without even a memory.
yours scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
272943 Kevin Foley <kevin.m.foley@c...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
Scott said:

 "lost in an archive nobody ever reads, is part of my life's work."

I read the archive.  I read your stuff.  I’ve got your webpage http://u
sers.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/">http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandst
aff/ bookmarked!

Kevin in Chantilly. The other one. The one in Virginia.
272944 Zachary Dillinger <zacharydillinger@g...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
I can honestly say that I would not be as far along my path had I not been
told about the list and, Scott, you've been an inspiration to me since day
one. That archive is truly a treasure.

All that said, I decidedly lack the technical skills to make the list work,
but I can help fund the transition. If someone is able to handle the tech,
I will front the dough to make it happen.

Chris, thank you for your service!



Zachary Dillinger
517-231-3374
272945 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@g...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
GG's,

The Archive isn't going anywhere, at least not for now. I'd just like the
list hosting off my server. I'm happy to continue archiving posts as they
come in, and being ListMom to the list, wherever it winds up.

My personal opinion is that we should move to a commercial service like
groups.io and set up some sort of donation site so we can keep it running.

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
https://swingley.org/
272946 Chuck Taylor 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
Chris wrote:

====
My personal opinion is that we should move to a commercial service like
groups.io and set up some sort of donation site so we can keep it running.
====
I second the motion. Chris says groups.io would cost about $40/month. That's
$480/year. If just 48 of the 1100 subscribers would pony up $10/year, we've got
it covered. Kind of like the public radio/public TV model. Everybody doesn't
need to pay, but if enough people pay what they can, we're good. Count me in!
Chuck Taylornorth of Seattle USA
272947 Bill Ghio 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
> On Mar 6, 2021, at 1:43 PM, Chuck Taylor via OldTools  wrote:
> 
> Chris wrote:
> 
> ====
> My personal opinion is that we should move to a commercial service like
> groups.io and set up some sort of donation site so we can keep it running.
> ====
> I second the motion. Chris says groups.io would cost about $40/month. That's
$480/year. If just 48 of the 1100 subscribers would pony up $10/year, we've got
it covered. Kind of like the public radio/public TV model. Everybody doesn't
need to pay, but if enough people pay what they can, we're good. Count me in!
> Chuck Taylornorth of Seattle USA

me too.

Bill
272949 "Dennis Heyza" <michigaloot@c...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
I've been hanging around here since June, 1996 though work and personal
demands have kept participation to a minimum for a long time. That said, I
consider the List (Porch) to be of immense value and hope to jump in more
since I retired at the end of last year.

Count me in for a donation.

Dennis Heyza
New Baltimore MI

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools  On Behalf Of Chuck Taylor
via OldTools
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 1:43 PM
To: Zachary Dillinger ; Christopher Swingley

Cc: Galoots 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Future of the List

Chris wrote:

====
My personal opinion is that we should move to a commercial service like
groups.io and set up some sort of donation site so we can keep it running.
====
I second the motion. Chris says groups.io would cost about $40/month. That's
$480/year. If just 48 of the 1100 subscribers would pony up $10/year, we've
got it covered. Kind of like the public radio/public TV model. Everybody
doesn't need to pay, but if enough people pay what they can, we're good.
Count me in!
Chuck Taylornorth of Seattle USA




  
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
272951 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@g...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
GGs,

OK, I think we have the beginnings of a plan. I propose we migrate the List
to groups.io, and set up an opencollective for collecting donations (
https://docs.opencollective.com/help/about/introduction). I think the
advantage of using opencollective (or something similar) by comparison to
GoFundMe or direct PayPal payments to a person is that there's more
accountability and long term stability. I am happy to set up the group and
migrate subscriber information, etc., to groups.io, and I have started
setting up a donation site (https://opencollective.com/oldtools-list).

How does that sound to the assembled? Any issues anyone sees with groups.io
or opencollective?

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
https://swingley.org/
272952 gtgrouch@r... 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
Apparently the open collective entity is pending approval. 

We can't donate yet. 

Thanks Chris!

	-----------------------------------------From: "Christopher Swingley"

To: "Bill Ghio"
Cc: "OldTools List"
Sent: Saturday March 6 2021 2:47:57PM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Future of the List

 GGs,

 OK, I think we have the beginnings of a plan. I propose we migrate
the List
 to groups.io, and set up an opencollective for collecting donations (
https://docs.opencollective.com/help/about/introduction). [1] I think
the
 advantage of using opencollective (or something similar) by
comparison to
 GoFundMe or direct PayPal payments to a person is that there's more
 accountability and long term stability. I am happy to set up the
group and
 migrate subscriber information, etc., to groups.io, and I have
started
 setting up a donation site
(https://opencollective.com/oldtools-list).
 />
 How does that sound to the assembled? Any issues anyone sees with
groups.io
 or opencollective?

 Cheers,

 Chris
 --
 Christopher Swingley
 Fairbanks, Alaska
 https://swingley.org/
 />
------------------------------------------------------------------------
 OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
 aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history,
usage,
 value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
 traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

 To change your subscription options:
 https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
 />
 To read the FAQ:
 https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
 />
 OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/
 />
 OldTools@s...
 

Links:
------
[1] https://docs.opencollective.com/help/about/introduction).
272953 Spike Cornelius <spikethebike@c...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
How does that sound to the assembled? Any issues anyone sees with groups.io
or opencollective?

 I dunno, sounds kinda communist to me! ;>}


Sent from my refuge
272954 Tony Zaffuto <tzmti@c...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
Don’t post much, but I read every day.  Chris’s suggestion looks like just the
ticket and doubly so, for those of us that have aversion to many social medium
based sites!

When will the donation window open?  Will any be shut out if they do not donate
(i’m thinking in terms of many that don’t have much?  I

Cold in Western, PA, along with a sore arm from my second COVID vaccination (too
sore to hold a chisel earlier, but not too sore to pick-up a fork).

T.Z.

Anthony M. Zaffuto, President 
Metaltech, Inc.
3547 Watson Hwy.
DuBois, PA. 15801
www.metaltech-pm.com
(814) 375-9399
(814) 541-5019 (cell)
272955 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@g...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
Tony,

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 11:00 AM Tony Zaffuto  wrote:

> When will the donation window open?  Will any be shut out if they do not
> donate (i’m thinking in terms of many that don’t have much?
>

We need to get approved for what they call a "financial host" who deals
with the actual money, taxes, etc., and makes it a charitable contribution.
I haven't any idea how long that might take, nor do I know how particular
they might be about hosting us. I'll let you know when I know more.

As far as requiring folks to contribute, no, I have no intention of cutting
people out if they don't want to contribute. I'm hoping enough people get
enough value out of the List to spend a little in order to keep it going.
Based on the responses so far, I don't think it'll be an issue.

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
https://swingley.org/
272957 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
> On Mar 6, 2021, at 2:01 PM, Bill Ghio via OldTools  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 6, 2021, at 1:43 PM, Chuck Taylor via OldTools  wrote:
>> 
>> Chris wrote:
>> 
>> ====
>> My personal opinion is that we should move to a commercial service like
>> groups.io and set up some sort of donation site so we can keep it running.
>> ====
>> I second the motion. Chris says groups.io would cost about $40/month. That's
$480/year. If just 48 of the 1100 subscribers would pony up $10/year, we've got
it covered. Kind of like the public radio/public TV model. Everybody doesn't
need to pay, but if enough people pay what they can, we're good. Count me in!
>> Chuck Taylornorth of Seattle USA
> 
> me too.
> 
> Bill

Me too too

Ed Minch
272958 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
The spirit of the list would dictate voluntary donations.  I think we are in
danger of giving enough that Chris could vacation abroad iof he so chose

Ed Minch
272960 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
I'm in.

Don

On 2021-03-06 11:43 a.m., Chuck Taylor via OldTools wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
> ====
> My personal opinion is that we should move to a commercial service like
> groups.io and set up some sort of donation site so we can keep it running.
> ====
> I second the motion. Chris says groups.io would cost about $40/month. That's
$480/year. If just 48 of the 1100 subscribers would pony up $10/year, we've got
it covered. Kind of like the public radio/public TV model. Everybody doesn't
need to pay, but if enough people pay what they can, we're good. Count me in!
> Chuck Taylornorth of Seattle USA
>
>
>
>
>    
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s...


-- 
"A more infectious virus is more dangerous than a more lethal one." - Christian
Drosten, virologist

Go early, and go hard. Go to zero.

"It is certain, in any case, that ignorance, allied with power, is the most
ferocious enemy justice can have." - James Baldwin
272961 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
One of those open-membership bands - 'The Bunch' et al!

Don

On 2021-03-06 12:59 p.m., Spike Cornelius wrote:
> How does that sound to the assembled? Any issues anyone sees with groups.io
> or opencollective?
>
>   I dunno, sounds kinda communist to me! ;>}
>
>
> Sent from my refuge
>
>> On Mar 6, 2021, at 11:47 AM, Christopher Swingley  wrote:
>>
>> How does that sound to the assembled? Any issues anyone sees with groups.io
>> or opencollective?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s...


-- 
"A more infectious virus is more dangerous than a more lethal one." - Christian
Drosten, virologist

Go early, and go hard. Go to zero.

"It is certain, in any case, that ignorance, allied with power, is the most
ferocious enemy justice can have." - James Baldwin
272962 Matthew Groves <grovesthegrey@g...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
I’ve been preparing for this moment for years.


Designing a solution that please only part of us. Crafting a pitch that
alienates half of you. Pondering a new system that accomplishes less, costs
more, and most egregiously removes Scott Grandstaff’s life work.


It’s what I do.


I’m THRILLED to see that I can now scrap all of these plans. You fellers are way
ahead of me.


Nice.


Return to defcon 5


Matthew Groves
Springfield, MO
272965 Phil Edgerton <pedgerton66@g...> 2021‑03‑06 Re: Future of the List
Me too too as well.
Phil E.

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 4:16 PM Matthew Groves 
wrote:
272968 "Eric Coyle" <ecoyle@t...> 2021‑03‑07 Re: future of the list
The makerspace I belong to has used google groups adinfinitum. As far as I
know there is no cost. Apparently it can be moderated, members vetted,
banned and all that stuff. The only drawback I can see is how google is
taking over the world!

 

Zoom meeting tonight. Wanna bet this topic comes up?

 

Eric
272969 gary may 2021‑03‑07 Re: Future of the List
Gentle Galoots:

  Will I pony up to keep in contact with the world's galoots? Oww!---sprained my
shoulder grabbing for my wallet---again. It's a chronic bargain-related injury.
 
   As Darryl Six says about the Pacific Northwest Tool Collectors: 'We have
experts in every tool and every historical trade right here in one place, and it
doesn't cost a nickel to talk to any of them!'

  Actually, though, it costs $20 annually to be a member of the PNTC and it's a
*screaming* bargain; so what ever it costs to move the Porch, I will happily
pay. I'm gonna go re-read Chuck Taylor's post which is pretty well said....

  Big question is, what can we do for Chris Swingley?  I know that I have only
just realized how much he's done for us, and especially me in the past 6 years.
If it were just me deciding, I'd commission a gold pocket watch. A few bucks per
galoot goes a long way, even these days.
                             all the best to all galoots, everywhere; gam in
OlyWA/USA


How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen 

    On Saturday, March 6, 2021, 11:01:21 AM PST, Bill Ghio via OldTools
 wrote:
 
 

> On Mar 6, 2021, at 1:43 PM, Chuck Taylor via OldTools  wrote:
> 
> Chris wrote:
> 
> ====
> My personal opinion is that we should move to a commercial service like
> groups.io and set up some sort of donation site so we can keep it running.
> ====
> I second the motion. Chris says groups.io would cost about $40/month. That's
$480/year. If just 48 of the 1100 subscribers would pony up $10/year, we've got
it covered. Kind of like the public radio/public TV model. Everybody doesn't
need to pay, but if enough people pay what they can, we're good. Count me in!
> Chuck Taylornorth of Seattle USA

me too.

Bill
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
272970 "Joseph Holsten" <joseph@j...> 2021‑03‑07 Re: Future of the List
That’s really exciting! I’ve been wanting a catalog index for some other
interests of mine, fountain pens and razors. Now I have a direction to steer
toward! I should have known archive.org was involved in this sort of awesome.

--
Joseph Holsten
272971 "Joseph Holsten" <joseph@j...> 2021‑03‑07 Re: Future of the List
As far as I understand, to be hosted by the open collective foundation we would
need to be working toward public education or public good. So if we go with
opencollective, we’re committing to keeping this list open to the public.

If we wanted to close the list or have extra benefits for donors, we should
probably go with patreon.

--
Joseph Holsten
272972 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@g...> 2021‑03‑07 Re: Future of the List
Joseph,

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 3:52 PM Joseph Holsten 
wrote:

> As far as I understand, to be hosted by the open collective foundation we
> would need to be working toward public education or public good. So if we
> go with opencollective, we’re committing to keeping this list open to the
> public.
>

It turns out that groups.io has a mechanism to collect donations for
maintaining the account. It won't be a charitable contribution, but it's
also built in, so I think that's going to be the way we finance this.

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
https://swingley.org/
272973 Kirk Eppler 2021‑03‑07 Re: Future of the List
Wow, ignore the oldtools list for a few days (Ok, maybe hours), and all
kinds of mayhem breaks loose.

As always, it looks like Chris is looking out for us again!  Thank you sir
for all the efforts over the past few years, keeping us on the straight and
narrow, well archived, in communication when our ISP’s foul up, and all
that good stuff.

I am going to defer to your wisdom of choice on wherever you suggest, and
kick in a few bucks up front, (and maybe we can host an annual fund drive,
like NPR, where the happy camper puts on a demo of something we are all
dying to know, and pauses every few minutes to remind us to donate to
support the archiving of all the knowledge that has accumulated here over
the years.)

Knowing the generosity of Galoots, I’m not too worried about that.  Wonder
if the site will accept excess chisels and mitre boxes....

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, who opened a box from House Handle today, and fitted
four on this lazy summer afternoon in mid March

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 7:26 AM Christopher Swingley 
wrote:

> GG's,
>
> I've been maintaining the OldTools List on my server since 2015 when I took
> over from Cornell Law School, who had been hosting it. The time has come
> for me to step down and turn the List over to someone else.
>
-- 
Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors. Kirk
272974 "K. W. Landry" <kwlandry@g...> 2021‑03‑07 Re: Future of the List
I'm in as well, and although Chris has already noted groups.io has a
contribution mechanism, I would argue that the list provides exactly the
criteria of public good and public education required for opencollective,

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 7:55 PM Christopher Swingley 
wrote:
272975 David Sobel 2021‑03‑07 Re: Future of the List
Huh?  What?  

I didn’t receive any list mail the last few days.  Turns out it was going to my
junk mail folder.  Started doing that right before Chris’ original message.  By
the time I first learned that there were necessary changes coming, you guys
already had it figured out.

Count me in for contributing.  

Thanks to Chris for everything.

David Sobel
272976 Christian Gagneraud <chgans@g...> 2021‑03‑07 Re: Future of the List
On Sun, 7 Mar 2021 at 13:55, Christopher Swingley  wrote:
>
> Joseph,
>
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 3:52 PM Joseph Holsten 
> wrote:
>
> > As far as I understand, to be hosted by the open collective foundation we
> > would need to be working toward public education or public good. So if we
> > go with opencollective, we’re committing to keeping this list open to the
> > public.
> >
>
> It turns out that groups.io has a mechanism to collect donations for
> maintaining the account. It won't be a charitable contribution, but it's
> also built in, so I think that's going to be the way we finance this.

I don't mind about the system we're using, for as long as
- It is a mailing list
- Email aren't mangled with top posting (eg, people reply online) or HTML
- Email threading is not broken

As well, worth considering:
- Email attachment? (eg. pic or it didn't happen)
- Spam protection (I never received a single spam on this ML since i
joined 1 or 2 years ago)
- The list might gain visibility and users, how we make sure this list
keep it's authenticity, stays on topic

I don't mind contributing to cover the costs.
Looking forward.
Chris, NZ
272977 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑03‑07 Re: Future of the List
On 2021-03-06 6:23 p.m., K. W. Landry wrote:
> I'm in as well, and although Chris has already noted groups.io has a
> contribution mechanism, I would argue that the list provides exactly the
> criteria of public good and public education required for opencollective,
>
> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 7:55 PM Christopher Swingley 
> wrote:
>
>> Joseph,
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 3:52 PM Joseph Holsten 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> As far as I understand, to be hosted by the open collective foundation we
>>> would need to be working toward public education or public good. So if we
>>> go with opencollective, we’re committing to keeping this list open to the
>>> public.

I think so too.

FWIW

Don

-- 
"A more infectious virus is more dangerous than a more lethal one." - Christian
Drosten, virologist

Go early, and go hard. Go to zero.

"It is certain, in any case, that ignorance, allied with power, is the most
ferocious enemy justice can have." - James Baldwin
272978 don schwartz <dks@t...> 2021‑03‑07 Re: future of the list
I don't trust Google with anything.

Don
On 2021-03-06 5:28 p.m., Eric Coyle wrote:
> The makerspace I belong to has used google groups adinfinitum. As far as I
> know there is no cost. Apparently it can be moderated, members vetted,
> banned and all that stuff. The only drawback I can see is how google is
> taking over the world!
>
>   
>
> Zoom meeting tonight. Wanna bet this topic comes up?
>
>   
>
> Eric
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s...


-- 
"A more infectious virus is more dangerous than a more lethal one." - Christian
Drosten, virologist

Go early, and go hard. Go to zero.

"It is certain, in any case, that ignorance, allied with power, is the most
ferocious enemy justice can have." - James Baldwin
272985 "Joseph Holsten" <joseph@j...> 2021‑03‑07 Re: future of the list
I only trust them when I’m paying them. 

We could use Google Workspace (formerly G Suite, Google Apps for your domain),
and I’ve done that to have email hosting for people at a domain. But that’s not
the kind of mailing list we want here.

Groups.io would be much cheaper anyway. 

--
Joseph Holsten
273032 james rich <jameslrich3@g...> 2021‑03‑12 Re: Future of the List
I have been here , silently , since the beginning or close to it. I
dont speak much at all
but I have learned just about everything here and not just hand tools ! I
am absolutely
not capable of hosting a Mail List , but It would be devastating to lose
the list . I am
in for whatever changes need to be made to keep this here lectronic thingy
going.  I
went to the donation site and was unable to donate , but certainly will .

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 11:47 AM Christopher Swingley 
wrote:
273033 "Dennis Heyza" <michigaloot@c...> 2021‑03‑12 Re: Future of the List
It appears the group has not been approved yet?

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools  On Behalf Of james rich
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2021 9:48 PM
To: Christopher Swingley 
Cc: OldTools List 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Future of the List

I have been here , silently , since the beginning or close to it. I dont
speak much at all but I have learned just about everything here and not just
hand tools ! I am absolutely not capable of hosting a Mail List , but It
would be devastating to lose the list . I am in for whatever changes need to
be made to keep this here lectronic thingy going.  I went to the donation
site and was unable to donate , but certainly will .

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 11:47 AM Christopher Swingley 
wrote:

> GGs,
>
> OK, I think we have the beginnings of a plan. I propose we migrate the 
> List to groups.io, and set up an opencollective for collecting 
> donations ( https://docs.opencollective.com/help/about/introduction). 
> I think the advantage of using opencollective (or something similar) 
> by comparison to GoFundMe or direct PayPal payments to a person is 
> that there's more accountability and long term stability. I am happy 
> to set up the group and migrate subscriber information, etc., to 
> groups.io, and I have started setting up a donation site
(https://opencollective.com/oldtools-list).
>
> How does that sound to the assembled? Any issues anyone sees with 
> groups.io or opencollective?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Chris
> --
> Christopher Swingley
> Fairbanks, Alaska
> https://swingley.org/
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool 
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage, 
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of 
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
>
> To change your subscription options:
> https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
>
> To read the FAQ:
> https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html
>
> OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/
>
> OldTools@s...
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
273040 Chuck Taylor 2021‑03‑12 Re: Administrivia: List Migration Information
Dennis,

You wrote:

====snip====
Thanks for the info, Chris. When I went to the page this morning there was a
“not approved” message in the banner.
====end snip====

The link in Chris's email had an extra "," at the end, courtesy of the email
software. Try

https://groups.io/g/oldtools


Works for me. You need to have your login and password set up before you can
donate.

---
Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA
273041 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@g...> 2021‑03‑12 Re: Administrivia: List Migration Information
GGs,

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 10:04 AM Chuck Taylor  wrote:

> The link in Chris's email had an extra "," at the end, courtesy of the
> email software. Try
>
> https://groups.io/g/oldtools


Thanks Chuck. And just to be clear, you don't need to go there and sign up
to continue getting the List. I will be migrating everyone over
automatically this weekend. If you want to get a head start, feel free, but
it's not necessary.

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
https://swingley.org/
273043 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2021‑03‑12 Re: Administrivia: List Migration Information
> On Mar 12, 2021, at 1:24 PM, Dennis Heyza  wrote:
> 
> * As I mentioned, once you've connected to the List's web site, you can
support the List by clicking the "Sponsor this List" button. I estimate it'll
cost around $44/month (US) to keep it going. I decided it was easier to use the
internal sponsorship/donations mechanism built into groups.io <http://groups.io/">http://groups.io/> <http://groups.io">http://groups.io <http://groups.io/">http://groups.io/>>  rather than collecting money
outside of the site and then spending it on the List.
> 

Chris

What happns if they get more than $44 a month?

Ed Minch
273044 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@g...> 2021‑03‑12 Re: Administrivia: List Migration Information
Ed,

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 11:20 AM Ed Minch  wrote:

> What happns if they get more than $44 a month?
>

It'll be applied to the next month, etc., until the sponsorship money runs
out. I'm not seeing an easy way for subscribers to see how much money is in
the kitty at any given time, but for now I'll just keep an eye on it and
potentially ask for more contributions if it gets low.

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
https://swingley.org/
273046 Tony Zaffuto <tzmti@c...> 2021‑03‑12 Re: Administrivia: List Migration Information
So what is the recommended amount?

T

Anthony M. Zaffuto, President 
Metaltech, Inc.
3547 Watson Hwy.
DuBois, PA. 15801
www.metaltech-pm.com
(814) 375-9399
(814) 541-5019 (cell)
273047 Christopher Swingley <cswingle@g...> 2021‑03‑12 Re: Administrivia: List Migration Information
Tony,

On Fri, Mar 12, 2021 at 12:36 PM Tony Zaffuto  wrote:

> So what is the recommended amount?
>

That's a hard question to answer. We've got around 1000 members and a
yearly bill of around $500. If a quarter of subscribers kick in the minimum
$5/year that would easily be sustainable. The actual cost per subscriber is
about $0.50/year, so if every subscriber contributed $5 now that'd last us
around 10 years. It's really a question of what percentage of subscribers
donate and how much they contribute.

Put in what it's worth to you and what you can afford. If that's nothing
for whatever reason, so be it. Those that can, will, I have no doubt, and I
certainly don't intend to restrict membership to those who pay.

Once the dust settles on the transition/sponsorship I'll send an email to
the List letting everyone know what's in the kitty and how long that'll
last. That should give us a good idea of what we'll need to do going
forward. Sound good?

Cheers,

Chris
-- 
Christopher Swingley
Fairbanks, Alaska
https://swingley.org/
273048 Tony Zaffuto <tzmti@c...> 2021‑03‑12 Re: Administrivia: List Migration Information
I’ll belly up with extra, to help cover those that can’t.

T

Anthony M. Zaffuto, President 
Metaltech, Inc.
3547 Watson Hwy.
DuBois, PA. 15801
www.metaltech-pm.com
(814) 375-9399
(814) 541-5019 (cell)
273054 Mick Dowling <spacelysprocket@b...> 2021‑03‑13 Re: Administrivia: List Migration Information
I will confidently predict an over subscription!

Mick Dowling
273057 Chuck Taylor 2021‑03‑13 Re: Administrivia: List Migration Information
Tony asked:

====
> So what is the recommended amount?
====

and Chris responded:

====
That's a hard question to answer. ...
Put in what it's worth to you and what you can afford. If that's nothing
for whatever reason, so be it. ...
Once the dust settles on the transition/sponsorship I'll send an email to
the List letting everyone know what's in the kitty and how long that'll
last....
====

First, besides our thanks for all his efforts on our behalf, I think we owe
Chris some slack while he spends his weekend migrating the list. Please, no more
questions that require a response from Chris until the dust settles!

Second, I suggest $10 for an initial donation (once the dust settles) for those
who are so inclined. I figure $10 is enough to make it worthwhile yet not so
much as to be a burden to most folks. Chris says that excess donations will
carry over, so instead of making it an annual donation, why not just wait until
the next call for donations when the kitty runs low, however long that takes?

Cheers,
Chuck Taylor
getting ready to Spring forward 
north of Seattle USA

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