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272857 Thomas Conroy 2021‑02‑20 Newly-found joiner's toolbox
Dunno if anyone has linked to this tool box yet:
https://www.youtube.com/wa
tch?v=_pRKHfr1wDI

Tom ConroyBerkeley
272858 Kirk Eppler 2021‑02‑20 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
I’ve been in that shop!  Posted about it two summers ago, while visiting my
younger daughter.  That looks to be a new storefront for him.

Nice find Tom, thanks for sharing.

Kirk in Half Moon Bay, CA, nothin thought provoking to share, except hope
you all are staying warm.




On Fri, Feb 19, 2021 at 6:00 PM Thomas Conroy via OldTools <
oldtools@s...> wrote:

> Dunno if anyone has linked to this tool box yet:
> > https://www.youtube.co
m/watch?v=_pRKHfr1wDI

-- 
Sent from my iPad, apologies for the Auto Correct errors. Kirk
272861 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2021‑02‑20 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
> On Feb 19, 2021, at 8:59 PM, Thomas Conroy via OldTools  wrote:
> 
> Dunno if anyone has linked to this tool box yet:
> > https://www.youtube.co
m/watch?v=_pRKHfr1wDI
> 
> Tom ConroyBerkeley
> 
It sure is beautiful but color me skeptical.  Why would a house carpenter carry
around a half dozen axe handles and the pattern to make them to each of his
jobs?   This is true of several other tools in there.   The brand-new slate nail
cutter had a label "since 1853”, But every DR Barton chisel has “1832” on it
even though they were made into the 1920’s.  So the timing is questionable and
the tool content is questionable, but, it is a very nice collection of tools.

Ed Minch
272862 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2021‑02‑20 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
It's a gorgeous find!  And a wide variety of tools, showing the owner
did  many kinds of carpentry, including furniture work. That said, I
really doubt the chest followed him to every job.  Now about the D.R.
Bartons -- the D.R. Barton 1832 cartouche came about in 1881, so not 170
years old, at least not entirely.  I have early D.R. Barton chisels and
a D.R. Barton cooper's side ax and draw knife that have the earlier mark
-- just "D.R. Barton, Rochester NY."  The chalk rounds are, I believe,
from the 1920s or 1930s -- got a few of those as well -- they go with
the chalk line that shows up later.  But I'm still drooling over the
find. 

Mike in Woodland
272863 Bill Webber 2021‑02‑20 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
Harrumph!  Me too, skeptical, I mean.  Two things jump at me 
immediately. No mention of user marks.  ALL craftsman marked their tools 
in those days.  Second, all the edge tools are just thrown into drawers, 
no attempt at dividers or protection of any kind.

For those that might want a refresher on a real populated old tool box, 
here's an old link.
https://swingleyd
ev.com/ot/get/265569/thread/#265569

This box was relatively well protected, still family members got into it 
absconding with tools and depositing inappropriate junk.

Bill W.
Nottingham, PA
Woodworkers visit me at http://bi
llwebber.galootcentral.com/
272864 gtgrouch@r... 2021‑02‑20 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
Did that chalk look new and unused to anyone else?

Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA

where I will have to dig out soon.

	-----------------------------------------From: "Bill Webber via
OldTools" 

To: "Ed Minch", "Thomas Conroy"
Cc: "Old Tools"
Sent: Saturday February 20 2021 9:46:52AM
Subject: Re: [OldTools] Newly-found joiner's toolbox

 Harrumph! Me too, skeptical, I mean. Two things jump at me
 immediately. No mention of user marks. ALL craftsman marked their
tools
 in those days. Second, all the edge tools are just thrown into
drawers,
 no attempt at dividers or protection of any kind.

 For those that might want a refresher on a real populated old tool
box,
 here's an old link.
https://swingleyd
ev.com/ot/get/265569/thread/#265569
 />
 This box was relatively well protected, still family members got into
it
 absconding with tools and depositing inappropriate junk.

 Bill W.
 Nottingham, PA
 Woodworkers visit me at http://b
illwebber.galootcentral.com/
 />
 On 2/20/2021 6:57 AM, Ed Minch wrote:
 >
 >
 >> On Feb 19, 2021, at 8:59 PM, Thomas Conroy via OldTools  wrote:
 >>
 >> Dunno if anyone has linked to this tool box yet:
 >> https://www.youtube.co
m/watch?v=_pRKHfr1wDI
 /> >>
 >> Tom ConroyBerkeley
 >>
 > It sure is beautiful but color me skeptical. Why would a house
carpenter carry around a half dozen axe handles and the pattern to
make them to each of his jobs? This is true of several other tools in
there. The brand-new slate nail cutter had a label "since 1853”, But
every DR Barton chisel has “1832” on it even though they were made
into the 1920’s. So the timing is questionable and the tool content
is questionable, but, it is a very nice collection of tools.
 >
 > Ed Minch
 >
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 > value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
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 >
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 /> >
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 /> >
 > OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.c
om/ot/
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 > OldTools@s...
 >
 ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
 aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history,
usage,
 value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
 traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

 To change your subscription options:
 https://ol
dtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
 />
 To read the FAQ:
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 />
 OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com
/ot/
 />
 OldTools@s...
272865 Thomas Conroy 2021‑02‑21 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
The dealer/owner says is that the box was bought at auction forty years ago,
and that the guy who bought it (and recently sold it to the dealer) clearly said
that all the tools had been parted up into different lots; but the buyer-at-
auction vacuumed up as many of them as he could, missing little except the saws.
So this isn't the archetypal chest closed in 1850 and left undisturbed for 170
years; its all the tools in one auction in the 1970s. I would be surprised if
all the tools in the auction were from the box, and I don't even know that any
were. Most likely some came from the box's working life, some were added by
later generations, and some were put in the auction from other sources.

I find Bill's point about the lack of divided up compartments for sets of
chisiels and so on to be compelling.  Was this perhaps a chest for something
other than tools? One ot the treasures of my binding teacher is a what she
always calls "the ship's chest" but which looks to me exactly like a mid-19th
century tool chest---except for the lack of tool-specific compartments. On the
other hand: did all 19th century woodworkers pimp their tool chests like hot
rods? We all know the legend of the use of the tool chest as the resume-
equivalent; but would that always be needed? Would the heir to a joiner doing
good business, sure to inherit, feel the need to show off fine veneering skills
to his old man? If he was just an ordinary-careless kind of guy, would he get
anal about every little piece being in exactly is motionless position? A box
this size would have lived in one place in the 19th century, except in really
extreme need, so the tools wouldn't have rolled around and jostled that much.

Some craftsmen are fussy about their tools, and the Porch is sort of self-
selected for a high degree of fussiness. But we know that some craftsmen are not
anal about their tools. The interesting thing is that meticulous care of tools
is completely unconnected with skill and accomplishment in the trade. In Ken
Burns' series on Jazz, he had an interview with Artie Shaw, and Shaw talked
about the first time he met Benny Goodman, at the great Carnegie Hall concert
which was arguably the high point of both their careers. Goodman wanted to talk
about clarinets, on and on about them: kinds, and makers, and how Shaw cut his
reeds, and things that I (not a musician) can only imagine. Fifty years later
Shaw still sounded impatient, almost angry and certainly grumpy, about this.
"It's only an instrument," he said.
So maybe the new-found toolbox was owned by an "only-a-tool" carpenter. One of
the ones who didn't mark all his tools. We know some woodworkers didn't because
there are lots of tools around without owners' marks on them.
Tom Conroy
Berkeley

    On Saturday, February 20, 2021, 6:46:33 AM PST, Bill Webber 
wrote:
 
 Harrumph!  Me too, skeptical, I mean.  Two things jump at me 
immediately. No mention of user marks.  ALL craftsman marked their tools 
in those days.  Second, all the edge tools are just thrown into drawers, 
no attempt at dividers or protection of any kind.

For those that might want a refresher on a real populated old tool box, 
here's an old link.
https://swingleyd
ev.com/ot/get/265569/thread/#265569

This box was relatively well protected, still family members got into it 
absconding with tools and depositing inappropriate junk.

Bill W.
Nottingham, PA
Woodworkers visit me at http://bi
llwebber.galootcentral.com/

On 2/20/2021 6:57 AM, Ed Minch wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 19, 2021, at 8:59 PM, Thomas Conroy via OldTools 
wrote:
>>
>> Dunno if anyone has linked to this tool box yet:
>> >> https://www.youtube.
com/watch?v=_pRKHfr1wDI
>>
>> Tom ConroyBerkeley
>>
> It sure is beautiful but color me skeptical.  Why would a house carpenter
carry around a half dozen axe handles and the pattern to make them to each of
his jobs?  This is true of several other tools in there.  The brand-new slate
nail cutter had a label "since 1853”, But every DR Barton chisel has “1832” on
it even though they were made into the 1920’s.  So the timing is questionable
and the tool content is questionable, but, it is a very nice collection of
tools.
> 
> Ed Minch
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
> aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
> value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
> traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.
> 
> To change your subscription options:
> > https:/
/oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools
> 
> To read the FAQ:
> > https://swingleydev.com/a
rchive/faq.html
> 
> > OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.
com/ot/
> 
> OldTools@s...
>
272866 Ed Minch <ruby1638@a...> 2021‑02‑21 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
Tom

good points all.   Here is a wonderful chest owned by a friend - oddly, he got
in the 780’s from the grandson of the craftsman.  He was an interior finish
carpenter working from 1860 retiring in 1913, and all of the tools are
appropriate to that era.  It always made me ask if a finish carpenter would take
this big a box to job sites or was this the mother ship and he took what he
needed for a day’s work in a smaller box or two.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/7057342305/in/album-7215762940599
7020/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/7057342305/in/album-72
157629405997020/>

All of these tools are exceptionally well cared for - look at the amazing saws,
every one a marvel.  None of the compartments are further divided, and if the
box were not intended to move around a lot, that wouldn't be needed.  No one
would need a full set of side beads in a traveling box.  While you are at it,
look at the woodies near the end - they are pristine.

I learned most of what I know (limited to be sure) in 1972-74 from a finish (not
Finnish) carpenter born in 1900.  He had a couple of boxes in his car, not much,
but always had the right tool.  He mentioned how he took the bus and trolley
system to work in Philly when he was younger and his box was tall like a big
briefcase so it fit between his legs as he stood holding the strap.

Ed Minch
272867 Chuck Taylor 2021‑02‑21 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
Ed,

What a gorgeous set of tools! Those woodies near the end aren't the only
pristine tools in the bunch. I have never seen such perfect saw etches.

Chuck Taylor
north of Seattle USA

--snip snip--
https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/7057342305/in/album-7215762940599
7020/ <https://www.flickr.com/photos/ruby1638/7057342305/in/album-72
157629405997020/>

All of these tools are exceptionally well cared for - look at the amazing saws,
every one a marvel.  None of the compartments are further divided, and if the
box were not intended to move around a lot, that wouldn't be needed.  No one
would need a full set of side beads in a traveling box.  While you are at it,
look at the woodies near the end - they are pristine.
...
272868 Bill Webber 2021‑02‑21 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
Tom presents a thoughtful write up on our continuing discussion of the 
subject tool box.  I'm pretty anal about my tools, OCD perhaps.  I have 
the cotton gloves for guests, nylon for fussy guests.

Any craftsman today who might use a saw or a chisel on a job site 
doesn't need to be finicky or anal about the care of those tools.  They 
are cheap!  If a saw or chisel gets dull, buy a new one, sharpening that 
stuff takes too much time.  Not the case in 1850.  Tools were expensive. 
  No craftsman could afford to keep buying them.  You bought a set of 
chisels and took care of them... or your work and income would suffer.

Bill W.
Nottingham, PA
Woodworkers visit me at http://bi
llwebber.galootcentral.com/
272869 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2021‑02‑21 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
What an impressive tour through a very noteworthy tool chest. Thanks Tom.
When I got to 15:25, I couldn't help thinking I've seen hinges like that
before.  Then I remembered the ones that Bill Kasper and perhaps Nicknaylo
forged for his Bill's gates looked remarkably similar. I can see why this
1800's guy saved it from from skip.  I couldn't throw them out either.

Paul, in SF who is delving deep into spoon carving today.

On Sat, Feb 20, 2021 at 5:32 PM Bill Webber via OldTools <
oldtools@s...> wrote:
272870 Mike Rock <mikerock@m...> 2021‑02‑21 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
Well, at the other end of the spectrum, I got a few of my great 
grandfather Ihm's planes and one small square.  The box was in our 
cheese factory basement for several years and had the chisels and gouges 
in old shirts, oiled and semi-sharp.  The saws were wrecks, hammers a 
mess of everything from blacksmithing to two veneer hammers that were 
the best of the lot.  There were commercial veneer inlays, like flowers 
and various bluebells for borders.  He'd worked at the Pullman car plant 
for years.  The ratty condition of the tools probably reflected their 
care after his death in 1920.
The two stones were in oily wooden blocks, both very dished and both 
broken in halves.  The dish was more than a quarter inch.  Years later I 
used a surface grinder to flatten one of them, it worked very well.  Dad 
still used the other one for gouges but that was all.   I still have 
cleaned the planes a bit and sharpened them. They do cut very well.  All 
have his initials, WI for Wilhelm Ihm. From the looks of some of the 
tools he worked on some very nice stuff with great care.  His home was 
his masterwork, which makes me think the tools got beat all to hell 
after his death.
272871 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2021‑02‑21 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
Yep, they're unused.  I have a box of these -- three chalks -- and these
look like they just came out of the box. 

Mike in Woodland
272872 Michael Blair <branson2@s...> 2021‑02‑21 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
Good call, I think, on several points, Tom.  The "only a tool" turn of
mind seems to have been at work in the Dominy workshop.  About 30 years
ago I had the opportunity to examine some of James Marshall's personal
tools -- they had seen a tough life.  Kept well enough to do the work,
but only that.  And Marshall was a Master Coachwright as well as a
Master Mechanic and a better than fair blacksmith. 

Mike in Woodland
272873 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2021‑02‑21 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
Mike wrote:

>   There were commercial veneer inlays, like flowers and various bluebells for
borders.  He'd worked at the Pullman car plant for years.
Ah! I can cite an example of Pullman's use of such inlays! There is an old RR
observation car, modified to just tables & chairs, attached to the Clinton
Station Diner in Clinton, NJ.  There is inlay on the vertical stiles between the
windows.  Their website has a photo showing the inlay, but it isn't a good
photo.

> The two stones were in oily wooden blocks, both very dished and both broken in
halves.  The dish was more than a quarter inch.  Years later I used a surface
grinder to flatten one of them, it worked very well.

My father used epoxy to re-join the broken halves of grandfather's large stone.
The epoxy wears so that it stays flush with the top of the stone; there is no
bump.  He used an "un-filled" two-part epoxy. (No metallic or other fillers.)

John Ruth
272874 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2021‑02‑21 Re: Newly-found joiner's toolbox
GG's,

Just to clarify, Dixon Industrial still offers this exact item, blue chalk line
chalk in hemispherical form. They also offer it in white.
htt
ps://dixonwriting.com/product/dixon-industrial-carpenter-chalk/

Researching this made me aware of other Dixon products with Galootish flavor,
like Railroad Chalk for chalking metal files.

John Ruth



Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 21, 2021, at 7:48 AM, Michael Blair mailto:branson2@s...>> wrote:

Yep, they're unused.  I have a box of these -- three chalks -- and these
look like they just came out of the box.

Mike in Woodland

On 2021-02-20 08:09, gtgrouch@r...<mailto:gtgrouc
h@r...> wrote:

Did that chalk look new and unused to anyone else?

Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://old
tools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archi
ve/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/
ot/

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