OldTools Archive

Recent Bios FAQ

269760 pdoubek@x... 2020‑01‑23 Emmerts Turtleback questions and WTB parts
GRRR!!!! I don't know why my e-mail does this occasionally, and it  
hasn't done it for over a year so I got complacent. It sends the  
subject but drops the body. My apologies... I'm not as dumb as the  
first post would suggest! :) My attempt at a repost never showed up on  
the list, so I'm going to try again... I hope it behaves.

I found an Emmerts pattern maker vise of the Turtleback species on one  
of the local classified listings last week. This is something that  
I've lusted after for 30+ years but they seem to be scarce in Northern  
Utah. I've only seen a couple for sale, and the other was so full of  
cracks, brazing, and bad welding that it wasn't worth the gas I burned  
to drive 40 miles to see it. This one was closer, more complete, and  
damage is minimal. I bought it... I hope I don't regret it! It's a  
Type 5, as defined by mprime's Emmert type study:  
http://www.mprime.com/Emmert/type_study.htm

The only damage I've found so far are 2 bad dogs and the mounting  
bracket/hinge. One large dog was badly broken and welded, one small  
one has some cracks that haven't failed yet. The bracket is in 2  
pieces with a third piece missing, so it's not salvageable.

The tortoise shell was missing a screw, so I threw a shiny replacement  
in there until I can find won with the appropriate patina so as not to  
draw my attention toward the shiny thing. With only 3 screws holding  
it I worry about breakage if it gets bumped hard with only 2 screws.  
It has the tilt adjust clamp but is missing the lock lever so I made  
another shiny thing from a handle I bought at Ace Hardware. It also is  
missing the tilting jaw accessory.

I see a lot of breakage in the online pics of these things and I'm  
curious whether they were poorly manufactured, if they were just used  
hard, or if they mostly get damaged due to their size and the fact  
that many people don't seem to understand how much force is required  
to do a job. (I saw a post where someone suggested replacing  
contractor saw (tailed meat grinder, Jeff) trunnion bolts with grade 8  
so you can really crank them down. I wonder how many table castings  
were destroyed with that suggestion!) It seems that the mounting hinge  
is often broken, but I guess that could mean the ones on the market  
let loose from the bench and crushed the owner's foot rather than  
indicating that they were underbuilt. Mine has some pretty bad looking  
casting on the hub that looks like it came from the factory that way,  
and the fit around the dog holes is pretty bad.

Is there a good source for parts? I might fabricate the mounting hinge  
from steel angle but original would look better (you know... it's all  
about the patina!). With the way the dogs are built I don't know if  
I'm better off fabricating them too, or if they work just fine if you  
don't over extend or put excess pressure on them. I've already made  
the tilt lock handle and it's functional, but an original would be  
nicer or I may remake it to get a little better fit than my first  
effort. Lastly... there's that shiny 5/16-18 pan head screw on the  
tortoise shell.

Here's a link to pics that I didn't have up when I tried to post last  
night: https://imgur.com/gallery/LL07eIf I hope that shares okay...  
it's my first time on Imgur.

TIA and Happy 2020,
Paul
Salt Lake City, UT, USA
269776 Paul Gardner <yoyopg@g...> 2020‑01‑24 Re: Emmerts Turtleback questions and WTB parts
Hello Paul,

I really wish you luck if finding those parts. I haven't really been
looking but I too have noticed a few of these mounting plates broken which
suggest they belong to that "rare and expensive" category of parts.  I'm
not sure how much metalworking equipment you have in your shop but I'd go
down the fabrication road and make a new one.  You have a great template
right in front of you.  The raw material would be relatively easy to find.
For the main bracket, if you have a metal bandsaw the shaping is really
straight forward but you could also get by with a hacksaw, a grinder with
cutting disc, a couple files, and a drill press.  For the hinge portion,
the shaping is also fairly straight forward but maybe a bit more of a
slog.  If I were doing it, I'd drill and tap both knuckles in addition to
welding them to the main plate - but I'm a belt and suspenders type of
person in this regard.

If you are concerned about the looks of it in addition to function, I can
certainly appreciate that.  There are a couple ways to get it looking more
like an authentic casting so you don't get "bumped" when you look at it.
After rounding the corners, you could pepper it with a needle scaler to the
desire effect.  A cheaper and more available solution you'd want to
experiment with first would be to lay a sheet of coarse emery cloth grit
side down on the steel and beat the cloth backing with a hammer.  The idea
is that this imparts the pattern of the grit onto the surface of the steel
leaving a rough finish that you can burnish via you preferred method (i.e.
steel wool).  I'd then heat the thing up till it goes dark blue and quench
it it some motor oil to darken the color.

I'd do the same with that shiny pan head screw except I'd strip the zinc
off it with some mild acid over the course of a day or three and give it
the same heat and oil plunge treatment.  Guaranteed to look better than it
does now.   Best of luck with the restoration!

Paul, in SF who has always had a fascination with these types of vises.
269780 Kirk Eppler 2020‑01‑24 Re: Emmerts Turtleback questions and WTB parts
On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 10:42 AM Paul Gardner  wrote:

>
> I'd do the same with that shiny pan head screw except I'd strip the zinc
> off it with some mild acid over the course of a day or three and give it
> the same heat and oil plunge treatment.  Guaranteed to look better than it
> does now.



Vinegar soak is a wonderful thing.  Or, if you know what size you need,
some of us have stashes of vintage screws which could be looked through,
but expect Galoot turn around times on that.

As far as parts go, if you've been to mprime, you should have seen this
page, with the drawing.  You didn't mention it specifically, so I'll toss
it out.

http://www.mprime.com/Emmert/RogerVM1.htm

RVM (RIP) who wrote this up, did a great job, and his Emmert was a thing of
beauty, say those of  us who have seen it.  Unfortunately for posterity, I
didn't take any pix when he showed it off in 2000 at the BAGAThon hosted at
his house, and I don't see it in the 2002, expect "closed up" here
https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-Gatherings/020907
-BAGathon-RVM/i-cWn8tJD">https://kirkhmb.smugmug.com/Woodworking/BAGaThons-and-
Gatherings/020907-BAGathon-RVM/i-cWn8tJD


Also, Carl at MPrime used to sell parts, but I don't see that offered
explicitly anymore.


-- 
Kirk Eppler, in Half Moon Bay, who hopes to get a bit of shop time this
weekend again.
269790 pdoubek@x... 2020‑01‑26 Re: Emmerts Turtleback questions and WTB parts
Thanks Paul and Kirk for your input. I'll try the vinegar to reduce
the shininess of the replacement parts for now... although that's low
priority compared to getting the mounting hinge taken care of.

Quoting Paul Gardner :

> I really wish you luck if finding those parts. I haven't really been
> looking but I too have noticed a few of these mounting plates broken which
> suggest they belong to that "rare and expensive" category of parts.

The mprime site has a link for CS Machinery with parts for sale, and
Bill Kerfoot responded promptly when I pinged him at
csmachinery@z... I don't yet have first hand experience with
the quality of his parts at this point so this isn't an endorsement
but rather information that a source for Emmert parts is still
available. (I was uncertain because the webpage copyright date was so
old and life on the 'net is fleeting) He says he can provide the
mounting hinge, dogs, and the flat bar style tilt lock assembly, as
well as parts for the K style vises and a few others. I'm fortunate
enough that I have the tilt bench bracket and think my hacked tilt
lock handle will work for now. I think I'll try my hand at fabricating
the mounting hinge and order some dogs from him when the vise is
up and running. I may end up ordering the hinge as well, depending on
how my fabrication efforts go, but it's good to know there is a source
for the thing. He also recommends the flat bar tilt mechanism over the  
round rod so I'll see how mine works and consider purchasing a  
replacement if it's a PITA.

> I'm not sure how much metalworking equipment you have in your shop but I'd go
> down the fabrication road and make a new one.  You have a great template
> right in front of you. The raw material would be relatively easy to find.

I am fortunate to have enough of the original mount hinge as a  
pattern, and I have both 1/2" hinge pins too. I picked up a cut-off  
scrap of 3"x3"x1/4" angle and some scraps of 3/4" and 1/2" bar stock  
at my metal supplier on Friday.

> For the main bracket, if you have a metal bandsaw the shaping is really
> straight forward but you could also get by with a hacksaw, a grinder with
> cutting disc, a couple files, and a drill press.  For the hinge portion,
> the shaping is also fairly straight forward but maybe a bit more of a
> slog.  If I were doing it, I'd drill and tap both knuckles in addition to
> welding them to the main plate - but I'm a belt and suspenders type of
> person in this regard.

I don't have as much metalworking gear as I would like, but I've got
the options of cutting with my torch, tailed reciprocating saw, or
grinder. I like the "belt and suspenders" idea of screwing the
knuckles in place. That's a great suggestion, but I like it mostly as
clamp to hold the knuckles while I drill them. I worry about keeping
the bores aligned with the bore in the hub so I was trying to think of
a way to clamp them while using the hub bore to align my drill, and then
reproduce the orientation prior to welding. Screwing the knuckles in
place will allow me to attach one at a time while drilling the holes,
and also to check the final fit/alignment before committing my work to
the welder. My welder is pretty lightweight and will not give me good
penetration on this thick steel but if I chamfer the parts and lay in
multiple beads I think it will be more than strong enough, and then
I'll weld in the screw hole for added insurance.

> A cheaper and more available solution you'd want to
> experiment with first would be to lay a sheet of coarse emery cloth grit
> side down on the steel and beat the cloth backing with a hammer. The idea
> is that this imparts the pattern of the grit onto the surface of the steel
> leaving a rough finish that you can burnish via you preferred method (i.e.
> steel wool).  I'd then heat the thing up till it goes dark blue and quench
> it it some motor oil to darken the color.

Cool idea on using the emery cloth to simulate the grain of a casting,
although I don't think I'll be that anal-retentive. While I prefer
original parts/patina/rust/decrepitude, I still place function over
appearance and the hinge can stand out as a replacement. I may take
the advice on the heat/oil quench to darken it, or it may get paint.

Thanks again for the feedback. I'll post back with the results and
document the process if it turns out satisfactorily.

Paul, rust junkie on shores of the Great Salt Lake
SLC, Utah, USA

Recent Bios FAQ