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265141 "Cal Meier" <calmeier@s...> 2018‑02‑16 What is a good slow speed grindstone
I know the emphasis is on hand sharpening using a variety of stones.  Yes I 
profit from the postings and sometimes the debate over oil versus water :-). 
But, more than a few on the list have mentioned using electric pigtailed 
grinders to aid in at least initial sharpening.  I receive advertisements 
talking about "low speed" grinders for sharpening tools.  When I check, the 
speed is commonly listed at roundly 1750 rpm.  What is a good "low speed" to 
sharpen at using an 8" wheel.  Any thoughts or strong opinions would be 
appreciated.  No I could not find my Dad's old hand crank grind stone and my 
cousin has my grandfather's pedal powered stone.

Cal Meier
Central Louisiana
265142 John Murray <murraytulloch@g...> 2018‑02‑16 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
I am also interested in the collectives' opinion. Specific to using a slow
grinder to reshape/touch-up molding plane irons.

Are we too far outside of the list's purview? The molding plane is a hand
tool after all...  (?)


On Feb 16, 2018 1:58 PM, "Cal Meier"  wrote:

I know the emphasis is on hand sharpening using a variety of stones.  Yes I
profit from the postings and sometimes the debate over oil versus water
:-). But, more than a few on the list have mentioned using electric
pigtailed grinders to aid in at least initial sharpening.  I receive
advertisements talking about "low speed" grinders for sharpening tools.
When I check, the speed is commonly listed at roundly 1750 rpm.  What is a
good "low speed" to sharpen at using an 8" wheel.  Any thoughts or strong
opinions would be appreciated.  No I could not find my Dad's old hand crank
grind stone and my cousin has my grandfather's pedal powered stone.

Cal Meier
Central Louisiana


------------------------------------------------------------------------
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aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

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OldTools@s...
265143 Kirk Eppler <eppler.kirk@g...> 2018‑02‑16 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:58 AM, Cal Meier  wrote:

> I receive advertisements talking about "low speed" grinders for sharpening
> tools.  When I check, the speed is commonly listed at roundly 1750 rpm.
> What is a good "low speed" to sharpen at using an 8" wheel.  Any thoughts
> or strong opinions would be appreciated.
>
>

Most normal vertical wheel grinders are 3450 rpm

Slow is 1750 rpm

I also have a LV horizontal disc for slow, but its pricey.




-- 
Kirk Eppler who has a new 24 grit 8" stone en route somewhere between here
and NY
265144 Joshua Clark <jclark@h...> 2018‑02‑16 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
I like the Norton Blue wheels like these:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,43072,43080&p=62012

They aren't the cheapest but they are much better than the wheel my
grinder came with. They cut fast and wear well. I've only been through
two of them and I do a decent amount of grinding.

Josh
265146 "John M Johnston (jmjhnstn)" <jmjhnstn@m...> 2018‑02‑16 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
My Tormek water cooled grinder runs at 90 RPM.  Jet is probably the same.

John


"P.S. If you do not receive this, of course it must have been miscarried;
therefore I beg you to write and let me know." - Sir Boyle Roche, M.P.

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Kirk Eppler
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 3:39 PM
To: Cal Meier 
Cc: Tools Old 
Subject: Re: [OldTools] What is a good slow speed grindstone

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:58 AM, Cal Meier  wrote:

> I receive advertisements talking about "low speed" grinders for 
> sharpening tools.  When I check, the speed is commonly listed at roundly 1750
rpm.
> What is a good "low speed" to sharpen at using an 8" wheel.  Any 
> thoughts or strong opinions would be appreciated.
>
>

Most normal vertical wheel grinders are 3450 rpm

Slow is 1750 rpm

I also have a LV horizontal disc for slow, but its pricey.
265147 John Ruth <johnrruth@h...> 2018‑02‑16 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
Oh, Cal!  This OLDTOOLS post will get a lot of responses because it is SUCH a
matter of individual experience & preference.


The body of your message is about the choice of grinding machines. (Rather than
the choice of the grindSTONE itself)  I'm a bit concerned about getting my
knuckles rapped for being in discussion of tailed apprentices on OLDTOOLS! (I
sent the first version of this off-list, but now I feel the topic is being
accepted by the group.)


My advice: BUY THE BEST, you'll never be dissatisfied with it!  Whatever style
you pick, go for quality.  Solid tools rests are very important, as is a low
run-out arbor.


 If I didn't already have too many grinders, I'd buy one of the gray, top-of-
the-line Made in USA Baldor 1800RPM grinders with stable cast iron tool rests.
These have good safety guards.


Don't think you can't afford quality. You almost certainly can afford a good
used machine.   Craigslist, eBay, local Flea Markets, Yard, and Estate Sales,
etc. You could even plan to own a succession of used machines as upgrades become
available.


I shy away from grinders larger that 6" for sharpening,  because I like the
hollow grind.


That said, my current favorites are a Delta wet-dry combination machine and a
Baldor tool grinder with tilt tables, both from estate sales.  (That last was
SUCH an incredible estate sale find that I would shamelessly gloat about it
except that we don't discuss such things on the Porch !)  The Delta has a 6" dry
wheel and a larger wet wheel.


Learn to mount grinding wheels in the safest manner and how to true them.  The
disintegration of a grinding wheel can result in serious injuries from flying
fragments.  Guards and safety shields must be in place and correctly adjusted at
all times!


Best OLDTOOLS Regards,

John Ruth
265148 <gtgrouch@r...> 2018‑02‑16 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
My sharpening grinder has a 1720 RPM 6" dry wheel and a 160 RPM 8" wet wheel. 

Got it from Harbor Freight a while back. I'm not that fond of the store, but
this has done fairly well for me.

YMMV, Gary Katsanis
Albion New York, USA
(where it was 50 degrees yesterday and 25 degrees today)

---- Kirk Eppler  wrote: 

=============
On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:58 AM, Cal Meier  wrote:

> I receive advertisements talking about "low speed" grinders for sharpening
> tools.  When I check, the speed is commonly listed at roundly 1750 rpm.
> What is a good "low speed" to sharpen at using an 8" wheel.  Any thoughts
> or strong opinions would be appreciated.
>
>

Most normal vertical wheel grinders are 3450 rpm

Slow is 1750 rpm

I also have a LV horizontal disc for slow, but its pricey.




-- 
Kirk Eppler who has a new 24 grit 8" stone en route somewhere between here
and NY
------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
265149 Derek Cohen <derekcohen@i...> 2018‑02‑17 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
Cal asks:

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTe
chniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html">http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Wood
workTechniques/UltimateGrindingSharpeningSetUp.html

In brief, the CBN does not wear out, therefore never loses its shape and does
not require resetting for bevel angles (I do all at 30 degrees), and grinds very
cool (close to a Tormek) which means less danger of burning. It is possible to
use a smoother-than-usual grit on the wheel (the 180 grit is a good all
rounder), and blades can more sefely be ground to the edge as one may on a
Tormek. This speeds up honing considerably.

They are coming down in price but not cheap - somewhere around $200 for a full
metal version (which I recommend as it is a big heat sink). Look at Woodturners
Wonders website.

In short, the CBN is a game changer. Do not ignore these wheels. They are
nothing short of wonderful.

Regards from Perth

Derek
265150 John Gunterman <jgunterman@s...> 2018‑02‑17 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
I personally have a Delta Universal Wet/Dry Grinder Model No. 23-700.
Small fast wheel I never use, I love it for the large slow vertical wet
wheel.  It's slow but everything I need.

Here at school I've been slowly rehabilitating a pile of old abused
footprint chisels on the schools Tormek.  After 15+ years with the Delta,
comparing them head to head, the Tormek is nice enough, but for a lot more
money. Of course it has all the profile wheels the Delta does not, and I'm
eager to use them once I have time to start turning again... So, my opinion
may change.
265152 "Michael D. Sullivan" <galoot@c...> 2018‑02‑17 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
I'm sorry, but to me a slow-speed grinder doesn't involve a stone going
around at 1750 rpm.  A (tailed) Tormek wet grinder rotates at 90 rpm for
the big version, 120 rpm for the smaller version.  Those speeds are much
closer to the speeds that a human-propelled stone might go, and to me sound
like "slow speed" grinders.

​(Coming in for the very occasional post from my decades of lurking.)​

Michael D. Sullivan
Bethesda, MD
265165 Cliff <rohrabacher@e...> 2018‑02‑18 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
well I have an "old tool" with a pig tail, that has multiple speeds via 
pulleys and n which I mounted two 10" wheels.  You can usually pick 'em 
up cheap at yard sales.  It's a repurposed head from a very old  mono  
tube lathe.   I hated the lathe so I just re-purposed the head stock

Discussing RPM is unhelpful since it  is SFM that matters and nothing 
more.  I don't know the numbers on that head stock but I can run u it 
really slowly so things don't burn.  However cutting rates suffer so I 
went with a water drip.
265167 Thomas Conroy 2018‑02‑18 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
Cal Meier wrote: "I receive advertisements talking about "low speed" grinders
for sharpening tools.  When I check, the
speed is commonly listed at roundly 1750 rpm.  What is a good "low speed" to
sharpen at using an 8" wheel.  Any thoughts or strong opinions would be
appreciated."


One of my main sharpening tools is a 4-1/2" handcranked wheel, geared up by a
power of ten, medium-coarse with a pretty tight bond. I believe my usual
cranking speed gives the wheel an RPM of 500 to 800 RPM, which translates into
225 to 450 RPM for an 8" wheel. At the upper end of this range there is real
danger of burning the edge if I maintain the speed; at the lower end I am pretty
safe, even if I don't pay much attention to cooling the edge with water.
I don't know how much this pragmatic result would be altered by using lightly-
bonded sharper white or pink wheels, which can take higher RPM.

For grinding edges, 1750 RPM is ridiculously high; since you must cool the steel
so often, I think you actually spend more elapsed time to grind an edge. I've
known people who tried using a power cord with a rheostat with ordinary bench
grinders to bring down the RPM, and sometimes it works but sometimes you just
get "too fast" going suddenly to "stopped" as you turn the rheostat down.
On the other hand I wonder about the speed of the Tormek, which seems way too
slow, considering that it is running in a water bath. The T-4, at 8" diameter,
is running at only 120 RPM; the T8, at 10" and 90 RPM, must have an even smaller
surface speed in feet per second (which, of course, is the real point at issue).
Maybe they expect the Tormek to be used right down to the edge, not for the
primary bevel. I've never used a Tormek, so I hesitate to judge it. But I sure
don't plan to plonk down seven hundred bucks for a badly-thought-through wheel
that needs a different jig for every tool.
What tempts me is variable-speed grinders; but I've never priced them. I have a
Makita horizontal wheel, which I'm devoted to, but that is a motorized hone (for
use on secondary bevels and backs), not a grinding wheel.
Well, there's the thoughts and strong opinions. Probably someone else has said
it all by now; I'm trying to catch up on my incoming queue.

Tom Conroy
Berkeley
265168 "bilcol" <bilcol@b...> 2018‑02‑18 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
Cal - I have a variable speed grinder that I bought at sears for a good
price.   The grinder does not go down as slow as I would like but I use a
32A60 K8VBE stone which is a "cool" running abrasive.  On the other end of
the grinder I use a high density felt wheel with green compound.  I still
cool the blade often and have not, yet, had a problem with losing the
temper.  I also have a hand crank grinder that is well used.


Bill and Colette
bilcol@b...
www.bohlfamily.com

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: OldTools [mailto:oldtools-bounces@s...] On Behalf Of Cal
Meier
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 1:58 PM
To: oldtools@s...
Subject: [OldTools] What is a good slow speed grindstone

I know the emphasis is on hand sharpening using a variety of stones.  Yes I
profit from the postings and sometimes the debate over oil versus water :-).

But, more than a few on the list have mentioned using electric pigtailed
grinders to aid in at least initial sharpening.  I receive advertisements
talking about "low speed" grinders for sharpening tools.  When I check, the
speed is commonly listed at roundly 1750 rpm.  What is a good "low speed" to
sharpen at using an 8" wheel.  Any thoughts or strong opinions would be
appreciated.  No I could not find my Dad's old hand crank grind stone and my
cousin has my grandfather's pedal powered stone.

Cal Meier
Central Louisiana


------------------------------------------------------------------------
OldTools is a mailing list catering to the interests of hand tool
aficionados, both collectors and users, to discuss the history, usage,
value, location, availability, collectibility, and restoration of
traditional handtools, especially woodworking tools.

To change your subscription options:
https://oldtools.swingleydev.com/mailman/listinfo/oldtools

To read the FAQ:
https://swingleydev.com/archive/faq.html

OldTools archive: https://swingleydev.com/ot/

OldTools@s...
265172 scott grandstaff <scottg@s...> 2018‑02‑19 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
Guess I'll weight in with old school, even if you don't want to hear it.

I grind steel. I have been grinding steel for a long time.
I don't just mean grinding a bevel on a 1/4" chisel. I mean making a 
1/4" chisel
or any other size I like, from scratch. Or grinding other tools or 
knioves or machine parts, whatever i want or need to make from metal.

    Grinders 8" and under run at 3600. This is standard and has been for 
generations.
10" is better because they take it down some.
But the surface speed is not terrible dissimilar.

   Of course you can burn steel. You can burn steel in any number screwups.
   Learning to --not burn-- steel is why you came to the party.

   Fortunately its not so unforgiving as many people seem to think. 
There is scorching, which is not the best, but its recoverable. A tinge 
of blue is not reason to cut your own throat, is my point. This is often 
a few molecules deep and you are going to hone that away anyway.  You 
have to screw up worse that that to be unrecoverable.
   Being able to remove amounts of steel is what you do if you do screw 
up and truly burn a blade. Go ahead and take the next 1/4" off and get 
to undamaged steel if you need to.

   I like a "snagging" wheel. This is as coarse as it gets, made for 
shaping steel during manufacture.
Barring that (snagging wheels are hard to get) the coarsest you can 
usually get is 24 or 36.

    This is my bread and butter.

I lost access to my 10" grinder so I currently suffer an 8" grinder. I 
have a couple of smaller grinders too. 5 & 6".  Plus belts and disks of 
all kinds and sizes.
I am looking for a 2 X 72" belt grinder if you have one in the corner 
unwanted?

The Secret to grinding steel is to grind it. When you don't know what 
you are doing at all get some low carbon scrap and grind that. Grind it 
boldly and deeply. See how it works for yourself.
Its not glamorous and its not particularly pleasant. But its the only way.

  Low speed grinders are just a rich man's attempt to sharpen an already 
finished tool. The "gents" approach. Its squidging around the edges and 
not going to teach you all that much.

Get a regular grinder and buckle down and teach yourself, if you want to 
be accomplished and secure there is no shortcut.
  Its how Bob Loveless and Buster Warinski did it too (look em up).
Looks like standard 10" bench grinders start around $400, 2 X 72 belt 
grinders higher but not too much. In the Tormek territory and you have a 
meaningful grinder not just a prissy toy.

      Each knife in this drawer was a design exercise. It was taking 
existing designs and adapting them to my own personal preference. Every 
detail of every knife was deliberately done, for a reason. As it should be.
   I forged then ground every one of them, save one. I did it with 
standard grinders.
  Low speed grinding would have never got me there. I would still be at it.

http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/knifepix/drawer.jpg
        yours Scott

-- 
*******************************
    Scott Grandstaff
    Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca  96039
    scottg@s...
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/
    http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html
265176 gary may 2018‑02‑19 Re: What is a good slow speed grindstone
GGs:
  A quick perusal of the gold-standard Baldor line-up finds a dozen grinders
that run 1800 rpm and spin wheels 8" or 7"---these range in price from about
$600 to just under $1300, so it's all academic, ain't it?  A good mandrel and
motor set up is the way to go.  You can get down pretty low with a pair of step
pulleys; I used to run one with two 10-inchers (at about 200 rpm if I did the
math right, anyway) VERY slow! Took a good while to grind really hard tools---
like Witherbys---as you might have guessed, but it was so docile, and non-whiny
that it was a real pleasure; the extra time was actually a bonus.
                                              it's not raining, but we know the
roof leaks, so I'm heading up...gam in OlyWA/USA

http://www.baldor.com/catalog#category=31
 

How horrible it is to have so many people killed!---And what a blessing one
cares for none of them!
Jane Austen

      From: scott grandstaff 
 To: porch  
 Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2018 9:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [OldTools] What is a good slow speed grindstone
   
Guess I'll weight in with old school, even if you don't want to hear it.

I grind steel. I have been grinding steel for a long time.
I don't just mean grinding a bevel on a 1/4" chisel. I mean making a 
1/4" chisel
or any other size I like, from scratch. Or grinding other tools or 
knioves or machine parts, whatever i want or need to make from metal.

    Grinders 8" and under run at 3600. This is standard and has been for 
generations.
10" is better because they take it down some.
But the surface speed is not terrible dissimilar.

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